Please take a look at this photo and tell me what I'm doing wrong when developing

Hi all,

I started developing my own B&W film 3 months ago, and I've always had lots of specks and marks on my negatives.
My house is quite dusty, and this accounts for the dust and small hairs, but I'm also getting lots of little white spots all over the negatives.

My best guess is that it's the result of micro bubbles on the film when in the developing tank?

But I always agitate properly and let the tap water stand for an hour before mixing my chemicals, is this enough or should I be using bottled water?

I've included an example of the problem, can you guys tell me what you think these spots are?

If you view the photo at 100% and look in the top right you'll see loads of the white dots.

Thanks in advance!

http://www.andrewwraggphotography.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/IMG_0004-Edit.jpg

I always give my films a pre-wash in filtered (or de-ionised) water at the developing temperature and dump it to make room for the developer. I do not experience the type of problem you seem to have so this might be worth trying. Careful agitation is always important to avoid surge marks.

Hi Roy,

Thanks for replying. What do surge marks look like, are they streaks?

Dust and lint are also culprits. Methodically clean everything that the film will come in contact with. This includes cameras and lenses.

Mike

Really just looks like dust to me. You may have it in the developing solutions, or more likely in the final bath (are you using a wetting agent?) Also a common problem is dust getting onto the wet film after it has been hung to dry. I soak my film in a wetting agent after the wash, sqeegee lightly with a sponge (wettex) and hang to dry in a very dust free enviroment. In my case I have a dedicated drying cabinet, but a lot of folks use the shower cubicle, usually works well....just make sure no-one has a shower!
Tony

As for the very white spots, other than the reasons already suggested, I would also verify that your fixer is reasonably fresh, well mixed, and free from sediment. Still, it mostly looks like dust sticking to a wet negative to me. What does it look like on the negative, when you hold it at an angle, under a light to see the reflection off the surface? Any bumps?

I assume this is not a reversal negative...

Looks a good deal like my first 4x5 negs. with one exception. The larger, brighter spots and fibers are a result of not cleaning the holders first or loading in a dusty environment. There are some smaller, more uniform white spots that are somewhat more evenly distributed. Not sure what these are unless air bubbles during development. I'm a presoak and tap fan prior to development step.

Thanks everyone for your answers.

I've assumed that the really white spots are dust, and that's something I can work on, but it's the smaller less white spots that are bothering me.

I've linked to a crop of my original image where I point out the exact type of spot I'm talking about.

http://www.andrewwraggphotography.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/IMG_0004-Edit1.jpg

Tony - I'm using a little bit of washing up liquid in the final bath as a wetting agent, then using a photo squeegee to remove excess water. My house is very dusty, and even the bathroom where I dry is quite dusty.

Rafal - I do reuse my fixer for around 5 rolls of film, so it is possible there are little dust particles in there. When looking at the negative up close I can't really see the tiny spots as bumps, that's why to begin with I didn't think it was dust. But I guess it could be tiny dust particles too small for me to see.
Just to clarify, this pic is scanned negative film converted to positive on the PC.

bobwysiwyg - It is the smaller more distributed spots that I'm trying to get to the bottom of. Do you think they are air bubbles?
I have this same problem with 4 different cameras, both 35mm and medium format, and I do try my hardest to keep the insides of the cameras completely dust free with cloths, solution and blowers, so I'm fairly sure it's something in the development or drying process causing the spots.

So what do you think guys, dust or air bubbles?

Yup, those are the ones I was referring to. They seem far too uniform in size to be dust, somewhat evenly distributed as well. Try the presoak with some gentle agitation and tapping the tank on some surface (assuming you are using one rather than trays) as an experiment at least and see if there is a difference.

You could try drying the film on the reel with the tank inverted over it. Prop the whole affair up with with a bottle lid or similar so that you can get some air circulation. I've only used stainless reels in doing this. Plastic should work too, but will tend to trap water at the reel.
The drying will be slow, but should be dust free. Another possiblity is to rig up a closet garmet storage bag, and hang the film in that.
Using a squeegee on film is a good source of scratches, I prefer to not do any wiping on the wet film.
Some of the debris could be from your water. If you still have spots after attacking dust in the drying process, try bottled or filtered water for every step.
Finally, washing up liquid is not the same as a proper wetting agent, and may contain ingrediants that will affect the film's longevity. Best, if you can, is use a wetting agent specifically made for film processing.

A drying cabinet solved my dust issues.

Thanks for all your advice guys,

bdial - I'll take all that on board, thanks. I think I'll try drying my film in a garment storage bag in my wardrobe.

A film drying cabinet would be overkill for the amount of use I'd get out of it, I only develop around 1 film a week.

If the dust free drying doesn't solve the white spots then I'll use only filtered water when developing.

Thanks again everyone, much appreciated.

If you are having dust problems, a plastic garment bag makes a good temporary drying cabinet. Something like this:

http://www.bedbathandbeyond.ca/product.asp?SKU=113534&RN=4303&

I would avoid squeegeeing negatives.

In addition, I would strongly suggest that you don't use "washing up liquid". You have no idea what additives are in there (perfumes, for instance) and what effect they may have on your film. Kodak Photo-Flo or the Ilford equivalent is cheap and will last nearly forever.

Andrew

Besides the dust problem, you could also have a chemical problem. What developer and what stop bath are you using? A dilute solution of acetic or citric acid makes for a powerful stop bath. However, with developers containing sodium carbonate, the acid concentration must be kept sufficiently low to avoid the formation of carbon-dioxide gas bubbles in the emulsion, because this may lead to ‘pinholes’ in the emulsion.

A couple of thoughts.

I'd deal with the obvious dust problem before worring about potential more complex problems. I'm not sure transporting wet film surfaces anywhere near a clothing wardrobe is an optimal idea unless the wardrobe is empty of clothing and has been seriously wet sponge wiped down inside and out. I'd try to make the path from developing tank to your DIY drying cabinet / garment bag as short as you can. Would it be possible to hang the film drying bag in the room you develop in?

Seeing your very heavy dust infestation, I'd wipe and mop every possible nearby surface, floor and ceiling included, two times before every darkroom session. The first time, to lower the overall dust and fiber population, and then once again immediately before processing to wet down surfaces to capture any new possible dust and to add to the general humidity to discourage static, etc.

Anything you can do to keep air movement minimized will help. No sense disturbing whatever dust that still lurks after you clean up, and one can never be rid of all dust. When hanging film to dry, make your movements brief and slow so as to not disturb dust fibers from your clothing. The clothes you wear can be a substantial source of dust and fibers at the exactly wrong time when film is most vulnerable. I might even run a damp cloth or sponge over my clothing just before the wash was finished to lower that source of dust.

A room air filter might help over the long haul to reduce the overall dust load.

I have my doubts that particles in the processing and washing solutions are the principal culprits, but it would not hurt to do a final rinse in fresh distilled water with just a little Photo-Flo or the like. Kitchen dish detergent isn't a good idea. I too am not a big fan of squeegeeing wet soft film. The usual Kodak prescribed dose of Photo-Flo can be cut in half or so, with no observable ill effects. Once you have used that distilled final rinse one time, discard it. Make it fresh each time.

Andrew
You seem to have a developing and a drying problem. You have been adviced many good ways to solve the dust problem when drying the film so i will concentrate on developing. If the picture is a scan from the negative then it's only film developing that you need to look into. I have had problems with gas bubles on the film many years ago, but since I started with a short water bath before developing that problem has gone. When you get gas bubles on the film during development it prevents developer to reach the emulsion for some time and the result is an area with less density on the negative. This in turn will result in a dark spot on the print. As the cirkular spots on your positive picture are brighter than the surrounding they must result from darker spots on the negative. For some reason these spots have been overdeveloped. If this is a result of gas bubles, they must appear either in the stop bath and/or the fixer which could cause the developer to continue its activity in these spots. If you have mixed your developer from powder chemicals, it could also be undisolved grains sticking to the emulsion and causing localy higher activity.
If the scan is from a print, then the spots could theoretically be caused by gas bubles in the print developer but I have never experienced this myself.
One more possibility is a manufacturing problem with either film or paper, although I regard this as highly inprobable.
Good luck with the problem solving.

Karl-Gustaf

K-G said:

... I have had problems with gas bubles on the film many years ago, but since I started with a short water bath before developing that problem has gone. When you get gas bubles on the film during development it prevents developer to reach the emulsion for some time and the result is an area with less density on the negative. This in turn will result in a dark spot on the print. ...

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By the way, I was talking about gas bubbles forming after development, caused by the stop bath. These gas bubbles will not prevent development (that is done at this point) but they will cause blistering of the emulsion, forming pinholes. One solution to this is to half the stop bath concentration, or if that does not work, to replace the stop bath with a water bath (which has it own set of problems). A pre-soak will not help in this case, since it is a reaction between the developer and the stop bath.

I'm using HP5+ film, Ilfotec dd-x developer, ilford rapid fixer and ilfostop stop-bath. All of which are liquid chemicals.

The Ilford film and chemicals should work together really well, so I'd be surprised if this particular combination was creating gas bubbles, but I suppose some of my chemicals could be from a bad batch. I bought some T-max developer yesterday, so I'll see if that makes a difference to my problem.

I agree that the spots look like they're caused by bubbles, and these must have been introduced in the stop-bath or fixer stage to cause darker spots on the negative. But it still seems odd to me, as when I put in the stop-bath I always agitate properly and sit for around 30 seconds before adding the fixer. I'd be really surprised if all of these tiny bubbles were introduced at the stop-bath stage.

I'll start pre-soaking my film before developing, I'll also stop reusing my stop-bath as often (I'll limit it to 3 uses), and see if that makes a difference.

Thanks again everyone for your great advice.

You are using liquid chemicals, so that should remove the possibility of undissolved particles (unless the dev has frozen at some point?) but there is still the water that might be 'dirty'. Filter the mixed developer through a funnel with a small twist of cotton wool forced down the spout - I do this with powder or liquid chemicals and whatever water I use, on the 'just-in-case' principal, after some problems with lime-scaled pipes years ago.

Final rinse would best be done with weak foto-flow solution made up with distilled water. The stuff you can easily get for putting in steam-irons would do the job. If that's impossible, put the household water through a filter-jug and if the water is really bad you can best use filtered for all the mixing and washing steps.

If these were missing specks of emulsion then the reversed-image artefact which we see would be black, not white. It would be clear film-base in the 'holes', rather than something stopping the light as seen in your examples. That is what suggests dust to everyone. You can make a drying cabinet from a junk-shop cupboard of some sort, or from scrap chipboard/hardboard, so long as it's more than 5 1/2 foot high and has a door

Edit: Looking at the blown up part of the photo, with the arrows you added, are these actually slightly unfocussed dust specks from a scanner glass, hence the greyness rather than white, like the hairs etc ? Possibly you have tiny specks of dust on the glass, or even the underneath of the glass, if you are using a flatbed or glass-holder to scan your negs. So, how are you scanning and can you see anything at all actually on the negs through a magnifier ?

Andrew

I don't know the ingredients for Ilfotec DD-X, but cut the concentration of Ilfostop in half and use it fresh, and I'm sure the problem with gas bubbles will be gone. If not, switch to a water stop bath.

One more thing to consider is your water supply. You may want to use distilled or demineralized water for mixing your chemicals once, to see if that makes any difference. Caution, this will change your development time!

I don't know how the pre-soak would help. A water soak prior to film development brings processing tank, spiral and film to operating temperature. It also enables and supports even development with short processing times, but it doesn't remove any gas bubbles. In general, a pre-soak supports a more even development across the film surface and is, therefore, recommended with short processing times of less than 4 minutes. However, when applied, it must be long enough (3-5 minutes) to avoid water stains. The pre-soak partially washes antihalation and sensitizing dyes from the film. This is harmless and helpful in removing a disturbing pink tint from negatives, but when dyes are washed out, useful wetting agents and possible development accelerators are potentially washed from the film as well. This is another reason why the effect of a pre-soak on development time must be tested for each film/developer combination. A pre-soak will require a longer development time!

Nevertheless, if all else fails, try a pre-soak (considering the above), but don't change more than variable at a time, or you won't know what your problem was.

You'll be left with the dust problem, because you have an issue there too, but you've got plenty of good advise for that already.

... and yes, check that scanner glass, or your neg scans for repeating patterns!

Andrew

I am going to throw a complete spanner in the works here, and suggest that your problem is not with your development, but in the film itself. About September last year I developed some HP5 in Pyrocat HD, along with a roll of Delta 100 in the same tank. I got negatives that produce prints very similar to yours, with hundreds of tiny white dots over them. Now, It would be very easy to blame my developer, or my routine, but this time not so, as the Delta 100, developed in the same tank remember, was ok, and produces good prints with no defects. I did a bit of hunting around and come up with this thread (there was a url link here which no longer exists) Firstly, don't be fooled by the thread title, as it is quite clear when reading that thread that the words 'pin hole' were used out of context.

I am about to send my film and print from the negatives off to Ilford, as Angelo does in the thread. I can't quite pin point the batch of film that was used, but all the HP5 in my fridge is labeled: 49CHB1C02/01 - OCT 2011, so I would assume that the problem roll that I had was the same.

Please don't think for one minute that I am pointing any fingers, I am sure that Ilford will be quite happy to recieve the film, and get to the bottom of any issues, and maybe see if there is a link with Angelo's film. All I am trying to say is, don't beat yourself up too much just yet, as the problem may not be you.

Best

Stoo

I don't think it's a dust problem, as Ralph says, it's more likely to be chemical or waterborne.

One reason to suggest it's not airborne dust is the fact that the spot distribution isn't even, as some have stated. The bottom half of the OP image is free of spots, and I've never known airborne dust to attach itself to one half of a film but not the other.

I'd look into the local water quality and your agitation techniques. Do you get insoluble hard water salts in your area? Why are those spots floating to the top (presumably) of the film when it's in the tank? Does it occur if you develop two films at once and, if so, how does it look then?

I also suspect that if your agitation was longer and more energetic it might help prevent this problem.

Regards
Jerry

Ralph, I think you're mis-reading Jerry. Read it as, "I don't think it's a dust problem. As Ralph says, it's more likely to be chemical or waterborne..."

johnnywalker said:

Ralph, I think you're mis-reading Jerry. Read it as, "I don't think it's a dust problem. As Ralph says, it's more likely to be chemical or waterborne..."

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Thanks for that. Amazing what a little punctuation difference can do to the meaning of a sentence. I think your proposal is easier to understand.

I have removed my post.

RalphLambrecht said:

Jerry

You did not quote me correctly. I never said it's a dust problem. I said he has a chemical problem and a dust problem on top of it. One can clearly see lengthy thin dust particles on the picture posted by the OP. In addition, there are tiny, round, pinhole-like white spots, which are likely to be of chemical origin, in the water supply or a sign of a damaged emulsion as Stoo said.

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My apologies, Ralph, I agree with you. A punctuation error, I meant "As Ralph says..." (As johnnywalker says...).

As I said(!), it's either chemical or waterborne and attention should be paid to the fact the white spots only inhabit one half of the film - pointing, perhaps, to something 'floating upwards' during processing.

Regards
Jerry