Please help me sort out my 6x7 thoughts

Changeling1 · Aug 25, 2008

Zenzanon glass (still) rocks!

I've been using two GS-1 bodies and several lenses for over twenty years. In addition to being reliable and well built, the GS-1 is very user-friendly and the glass is superb.

papagene · Aug 25, 2008

If you are mainly interested in landscapes, then the Fuji rangefinders work very well. If you do a fair share of portraits in this format, then the Fujis are not the answer.
I have the Fuji GW670 II & the GSW690 III and use them mainly for landscape and cityscape type photography. The Fujis with the normal (90mm) lens would be fine for environmental or full figure portraits, but head & shoulders type... not so good.
Good luck with your search, there is much excellent advice in this thread to think about.

gene

f/stopblues · Aug 25, 2008

I've been extremely pleased with my GS-1, barring the trouble I had finding a replacement dark slide. I searched high and low for one and ended up having to buy a cheap replacement back just to get the dark slide. Lesson: don't drive off with your dark slide sitting on the trunk (with the light meter!) I suspect other parts may be equally as elusive, but luckily, I haven't needed to find out.

Chris

2F/2F · Aug 25, 2008

IMO, the reason, and the only reason, the Pentax outdoes the Mamiya, is the 105mm f/2.4 lens, which is outstanding. It is significantly faster than any Mamiya offering. Otherwise, the Mamiya is a far more versatile camera in every way.

I thought I wanted a Pentax 67 as well when I had just started, but then I discovered RBs. In my experience, the people I know who prefer the Pentax are folks who are really pretty technically inept, intimidated by medium format, and prefer it's "big 35" look and feel. This in no way makes the Pentax a bad camera, nor does it mean these people don't produce outstanding work! There is just a bit of a different approach to using it, I think. Better suited for people who want the utmost in simplicity and ease of use, while the RB is better suited for those who are more interested in functionality, and versatility features.

Also, for some reason, the Pentaxes still seem a bit expensive on the used market, while RBs are going for dirt.

Re: "The RB67's are good cameras, too, but also heavy and boxy. These babies can't be handheld, IMO...maybe the RZ67."

Agreed in general, but they definitely can be hand held, as long as you can use a fast shutter speed and a short or normal lens. Same applies to the Pentax, but I would say it is even less hand holdable than the Mamiya with a WLF. Also, remember you can use MLU and the sportsfinder on the Mamiya, which can help.

jimgalli · Aug 26, 2008

You're getting lots of good advice. I'll throw mine in for what it's worth. I've had 2 different P67 systems at 2 different times. In the middle I had the big Mamiya Universal system 6X7 and 6X9. Then I moved on to 4X5 and larger. When the grandbabies came along I wanted some of the spontaneity of a smaller camera but still with the creaminess of a larger format. That's when I bought the second of the 2 6X7's. I paid $1500 iirc for camera and 45 90 165 300 lenses. To make a real long story short, it was and is imho just too big to be very spontaneous. i sold it for a decent profit and bought a wee little Minolta Autocord for like $65 bucks. Bingo. That little camera can be around my neck all day and it's lighter than the Nikon 35's. And the little Rokkor 75mm f3.5 is just superb. So as far as I'm concerned I have my cake and my cash and eat it too. The Yashicamat 124G is far more common than the Autocord and perhaps just as good. They're a great way to test the waters for 120 format rollfilm without spending ++1K and lugging around a boat anchor. If you're dieing to spend a little more $$ there are some lovely Rollei's to be had. Think Imogen Cunningham. Get Don Normark's book Chavez Ravine. It knocks my socks off, and he did those pics with a little Ciro-Flex 6X6 camera that won't fetch $18 on Ebay these days.

Frank Bunnik · Aug 26, 2008

If you choose the Pentax, Bronica or the Mamiya RB/RZ cameras, also count on a heavy tripod. These cameras are not the best to use handheld and require a (heavy) tripod, especially the Pentax because of the slap of it's shutter curtain.

I use a Fuji GW670III next to my Fuji GX680. The GW670 is a superb camera that weighs a little under 1.5 kilos. Though dubbed the Texas Leica, you can easily store it in a backpack for long walks and it has an excellent lens. There is no GSW670 with a wide angle lens but there are the GWS690 and 680 models that have a 5.6 65mm wide angle lens. The normal GW models have a 3.5 90mm lens that I put to good use for environmental portraits. Since there is no mirror or shuttercurtain slap like in the Pentax, you can use a much lighter tripod should you need one and shooting handheld is a breeze. You might however feel limited by the single lens option. We can't all by like Cartier Bresson shooting most of our photos with a 50mm lens.

Hope this helps, good luck with your choice.

yardkat · Aug 26, 2008

Thanks everyone for your helpful replies. As for my tripod, I have a Bogen 3021 with a ball head that I think should be plenty sturdy. Someday I'll get a lighter carbon fiber one...it's on the list. I think this morning I've decided to hold off on the Fujis, they definitely seem interesting, but I think I'll try a system first, and if it turns out that I don't use other lenses then I can trade around at that point.
Or if I just don't like the 6x7 ratio, I'll have a look at trading to 6x9.
Or just add 6x9 to the list.
(Why does my list get longer and not shorter?!?!)
So I think I'll just debate for awhile between the Pentax and the Bronica. The Bronicas are a little cheaper right now, and people that own them are very positive about them here on apug, but it does worry me a bit about finding accessories. And I like the fact that they're slightly lighter. Of course Pentax stuff is everywhere. And my first camera was a K1000, so I feel a little nostalgic about Pentax.
Thanks again everyone!
mulling and pondering,
Julie

John Koehrer · Aug 26, 2008

Hi Julie
One thing that's not mentioned is shooting verticals with the 6X7 if you're using a WL finder. Just for S&G try turning your Rollei sideways to compose. I know the Rollei's a square but the optics through the finder are the same.
If you don't shoot verticals either camera will work, if you do, The pentax is superior unless you buy a prism for the Bronica which will increase it's weight by a significant factor.

evilhomer78 · Aug 26, 2008

yardkat said:
Evilhomer, everytime I look at the Bronica gs-1 online I think about your Sq-A. You are still happy with it, right? I realize it would be smaller than the gs-1, but the sq-a is certainly a fine size.

I may just end up abusing the return policy at KEH.

I'm very happy with my sq-a, its not very big and easy to handhold.

KEH's return policy is great. I've returned a back for my sq-a because of a light leak and they were very easy to work with. They shipped out a replacement back the same day I called to return the bad back, they even upped the shipping to 2nd day for free. I've never had any problems buying from keh. I've found their prices on sq-a gear is usually as cheap or cheaper than buying through ebay and you can return it if you don't like it.

k_jupiter · Aug 26, 2008

Cheap, lightweight, or versitile. Pick 2 out of 3. That's your 6x7 choice.

Personally, I would figure out why a 645 camera won't work for your project. The thought of hauling a 6x7 camera in a backpack on x-country skis IS daunting. And I am a good sized guy. Throwing a 645 camera with two lens and a dozen rolls of film seems like a better choice, even if you give up that huge negative.

And yes, I own a rb67 system and have never recommended a 645 system before in my life. It just seems right for your application.

tim in san jose

yardkat · Aug 26, 2008

Ooo, I should clarify...the project I have in mind doesn't require either snowshoes or skis, well, maybe it will because that sounds like fun,...but I was just trying to illustrate what I normally do with my cameras. And of course, I might throw a 6x7 in a pack and snowshoe, depends how heavy it is...since I'm wimpy and all. But I'd probably do it, and if I whine just the right way my husband would probably carry it, but then I'd have to not let him see me be wimpy so I'd carry it anyway. (Although when he's in really good shape he goes soooo fast sometimes he needs a handicap, like a big ol' pentax!) I don't think 6.45 interests me too much because I already have 6x6, and don't really wish to go smaller than that, other than 35 of course. Granted, I could just crop 6x6 to the aspect ratio that I imagine, but my Rollei isn't wide enough. And, I was trying not to cloud my thinking and get too overwhelmed by adding yet another format into the mix.

usagisakana · Aug 26, 2008

100% crop from a 3200 dpi scan of a Neopan 400 negative, shot in a Pentax 67:

You can definitely use it handheld and without mirror lockup. Of course if you want absolute sharpness at slow shutter speeds then use it on a tripod with MLU, but do not let naysayers make you think you can't shoot with it handheld. It's heavy sure, but I find I got used to it very quickly.

MartinB · Aug 26, 2008

Julie,

I have both a Pentax 67 and 645 (don't ask!) Others have already covered many points so I won't go over the same ground.

I think the advantage of the 67 for a 35mm user is that it handles much like a 35mm slr so there is little to adjust to other than the weight. If that is the style of photograpy that will work best for the project you have in mind, then the P67 is a good choice.

The weight is not so bad especially with the wood grip. I mostly use it handheld but am usually shooting in bright light with ISO400 film. The waist level finder does reduce a lot of weight (and I find more accurate for focusing) but as already pointed out, difficult for portrait orientation (made that mistake at a wedding) With the WLF there is not much weight difference between the 67 and a Nikon F5! I have thrown the 67 in the pack while skiing but now prefer to take the 645 for that purpose. The one issue I have found with portrait orientation on a tripod is that the 67 is way out to the side and needs a strong tripod head to hold at that angle (which is probably why I hand hold!) By the way, the 645 has tripod mounts for both orientations which is great for balance.

The 105mm lens is very sharp and much like a 50mm on the F100 for angle of view. I have a 55mm for a wide - I have thought about the 45mm but they are still expensive and the 55mm seems to be wide enough for me. There are 2 versions of the 55mm - the f4 is much smaller and lighter than the f3.5. I find the 105 and 55 a good 2 lens kit, adding the 165mm f2.8 if I need longer.

While the sound of the shutter/mirror can be alarming, I have not found issues with vibration in the resulting negatives as others have reported (It may not matter as much to me but I am happy with the negatives) For me, I use the 67 for the SLR style handling that the subject matter usually dictates. If I can be more deliberate and need to minimize vibration, then I usually reach for the 4x5.

EDIT: Karen Nakamura has a good page on P67 if you have not found it yet Nakamura's Pentax 67 website

aparat · Aug 26, 2008

Have you thought about buying a cheap 6x7 or 6x9 folder and having it restored? The total price would still be low, I think. That would be your most portable, lightweight option. Check this link for more info:
http://www.certo6.com/index.html

k_jupiter · Aug 26, 2008

aparat said:
Have you thought about buying a cheap 6x7 or 6x9 folder and having it restored? The total price would still be low, I think. That would be your most portable, lightweight option. Check this link for more info:
http://www.certo6.com/index.html

Can you name one 6x7 folder?

And 6x9 folders have film flatness problems.

And to get a good folder with a rangefinder is as pricey as an rb67.

I do carry around a 6x6 folder a lot... but not for serious work. It's my snapshot camera.

So if weight isn't a serious concern because you won't be backpacking this...

the rb67 Professional S is the most camera for the money. If you think of it as a big small camera, you won't like it. If you think of it as a very small LF camera with the advantge of roll film use... it's an absolute steal.

Great (I mean stunning) lens, multiple backs, rotating format, tools for macro, and viewfinders of every type. And dirt cheap.

I do handhold it with a 50mm lens, but I don't recommend it.

tim in san jose

Michel Hardy-Vallée · Aug 26, 2008

In case you felt like using the Rolleiflex: cropping a 6x6 frame to the aspect ratio of a 6x7 frame would mean printing a negative with 6x5.14 dimensions. So let's say 6x5.

Crop half a centimeter at the top and half a centimeter at the bottom. Just make yourself a cardboard cutout to place on the ground glass of the Rolleiflex, and see if you like it.

Then, print a 6x5 negative at the size you want to exhibit and see if the image quality, look, or gestalt is up to your standard.

Unless you go with the Mamiya 7, you will not get 6x7 as portable as the Rolleiflex. (OK, there's the Plaubel Makina, but you won't find a cheap one!).

With the Rolleiflex, you're leveraging a camera you already own, that has fantastic lenses, and whose controls you know by heart. Buying new gear is fun, but if you're budget-conscious, give the cropping route at least one try.

EDIT: OK, I saw the mention of needing wide lenses... As others have said, pick 2 out of cheap, lightweight, versatile.

poutnik · Aug 26, 2008

Frank Bunnik said:
... There is no GSW670 with a wide angle lens but there are the GWS690 and 680 models that have a 5.6 65mm wide angle lens. ...

Yes, my mistake.

But anyway, I still think the Fuji rangefinders are best suited for most uses - landscape, travel, street photo, even some portraits (but yes, head and shoulder portrait is beyond their capability).

max_ebb · Aug 26, 2008

2F/2F said:
IMO, the reason, and the only reason, the Pentax outdoes the Mamiya, is the 105mm f/2.4 lens, which is outstanding. It is significantly faster than any Mamiya offering.

Mamiya makes a 110mm f2.8 lens for the RZ (just one of the reasons I went from an RB to an RZ). Personally, I wouldn't consider 2.4 to be significantly faster than 2.8.

max_ebb · Aug 26, 2008

yardkat said:
I may just end up abusing the return policy at KEH.

Personally I hope you don't do that. If you do, I hope the negative karma comes back on you. In my experiences returning items to KEH (for legitimate reasons), they have also refunded the cost of return shipping (which comes out of their pocket). IMO, buying something with the intent of trying it and returning it for a refund is the same as stealing (especially when the company is refunding the shipping cost both ways).

A smart ebay buyer can easily buy equipment at auction and then re-sell for a fixed 'buy it now' price for a profit (or at least their money back).

yardkat · Aug 26, 2008

Ummm, it was a tongue in cheek remark, that's why there's the little winky face afterward. good grief, I'm not a total jerk, I would certainly not abuse a retailer with whom I have had great experiences with in the past, and hope to have in the future as well. I realize you don't know me, and I also realize that online it can be hard to communicate sarcasm, off the cuff remarks, or light hearted banter, so let me just clarify so I don't receive morality lectures and bad karma wishes from anyone else: I have no intention of abusing Keh's or anyone else's return policy. That's why I am really considering, weighing my options, and seeking the counsel of those with more experience than myself. I really don't wish to order something I don't like and then be in such a situation where I want to make a return or exchange, that's why I'm really being careful and not jumping into anything.
Thanks,
J

Soeren · Aug 27, 2008

While I don't know what an 18-35mm zoom weight I can say that with the 50mm f/1,4 and MB15 my F100 puts 1500g on the weight. My P6X7 with a 90mm is around 2500g. The shutter slap issue is a returning argument here on APUG and while I respect other peoples right to feel otherwise I havn't experienced that as a problem (my tripod is a Manfrotto o55). Only thing on that matter is to get a really good head for it.
If I had the money today I'd go for a P67II also because the finder is much brighter than the one on my old
6X7.
Kind regards

2F/2F · Aug 27, 2008

max_ebb said:
Mamiya makes a 110mm f2.8 lens for the RZ (just one of the reasons I went from an RB to an RZ). Personally, I wouldn't consider 2.4 to be significantly faster than 2.8.

Having never considered RZs, I did not know that!

That gives the Pentax about 50% more light gathering ability, making it even less attractive than I already think is. You are right about the fact that this is not a lot, although I guess with 35 that I do usually use my 1.2 lenses over my 1.4 lenses, so there is a difference. However, not enough of a difference to buy into a whole camera system.

SuzanneR · Aug 27, 2008

yardkat said:
Ummm, it was a tongue in cheek remark, that's why there's the little winky face afterward. good grief, I'm not a total jerk, I would certainly not abuse a retailer with whom I have had great experiences with in the past, and hope to have in the future as well. I realize you don't know me, and I also realize that online it can be hard to communicate sarcasm, off the cuff remarks, or light hearted banter, so let me just clarify so I don't receive morality lectures and bad karma wishes from anyone else: I have no intention of abusing Keh's or anyone else's return policy. That's why I am really considering, weighing my options, and seeking the counsel of those with more experience than myself. I really don't wish to order something I don't like and then be in such a situation where I want to make a return or exchange, that's why I'm really being careful and not jumping into anything.
Thanks,
J

As someone who uses both the Mamiya 7 and an RZ, I can say that I LOVE the 6x7 format, and I think each camera has its strengths, and compliment each other nicely. And yeah... that 110mm 2.8 for the RZ is an awesome lens! But the RZ is a beast, too! And I use mine handheld, and love the results!! My back, however, isn't always so pleased after hauling it around for a few hours!! So, I'll switch back to the Mamiya 7!!

Having read through this thread there are a lot of 6x7 options. Do you have any good camera stores with a rental department nearby? Sometimes, renting gear, and giving it a good spin for a day or two is the best way to decide which tool is best for you, for your eye, and to feel how it fits your hands.

yardkat · Aug 27, 2008

"Do you have any good camera stores with a rental department nearby? Sometimes, renting gear, and giving it a good spin for a day or two is the best way to decide which tool is best for you, for your eye, and to feel how it fits your hands."

Not that I know of, but I really wish! The only film equipment my local store appears to rent is Hasselblad. There is a repair shop in town that has used stuff that I haven't been to in a while, I have meant to swing over there for the last couple of days but haven't been able to as yet. When I used to pop in there more often, I recall that they always had a couple Mamiyas on their shelves. If I finish up in the darkroom reasonably early today maybe I'll swing on over there.
Basically it sounds like people like all the options...meaning I haven't really heard anything terribly negative about any of the systems, and I probably really can't go too wrong, and really it's up to how it feels to me, since they'll all perform pretty well. I've been following this thread (there was a url link here which no longer exists) as well and getting some info there as well. I also know that if I could spend a little more $$$ I'd have more options, but I also need new tires in the next couple months...*sigh*

Paul.A · Aug 29, 2008

2F/2F said "the people I know who prefer the Pentax are folks who are really pretty technically inept, intimidated by medium format, and prefer it's "big 35" look and feel. "

Never considered myself as technically inept before, 25 years in the industry writing technical articles on photography, and now I'm considered technically inept because of the brand of camera I use. What a load of fucking bollocks.

Please help me sort out my 6x7 thoughts

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Please help me sort out my 6x7 thoughts

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