Pleasant Surprise

thuggins · Nov 8, 2019

A goodly portion of folks on this site have probably used the Evil Auction Site at some point to buy camera gear. I won't get into the details of why it is evil, but suffice it to say that the general rule was never spend more than you are willing to lose, as you had a very real chance of being scammed. Recently I noticed that auction listings have a notation what the "Seller doesn't accept returns, but you're still protected by the (Evil Auction Site) protection plan". I always wondered how this worked but never really dug into it.

Recently I bought a camera that was described as needing work, but having good glass and repairable with minor effort. Interestingly enough, the seller didn't disclaim all knowledge about cameras. Instead he claimed extensive photography experience and oddly used this to justify why he didn't accept returns.

The camera came with a slow shutter and frozen helicoid. No problem, that was expected and I set about making things right. On removing the glass. the rear element turned out to be just a random lens jammed in place to make things look good. So much for "good glass" and "repairable". But the body of the camera was in good shape and I figured I could pick up a replacement shutter with a lens and call it good. Then it became apparent that the retaining ring had been glued in place, obviously to try and cover up the kluged lens.

At that point I had enough and availed myself of the "money back guarantee". This turn out to just be a link to contact the seller, so I sent an email requesting a refund. He sent back the usual hate screed, questioning my parentage and accusing me of kidnapping the Lindbergh baby. But after wading thru all his vitriol, the guy actually offered to take the camera back! I still had to pay for postage both ways, but in spite of everything that had happened I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt that he was not aware of the problems.

From this experience I assume that the guarantee is really that the auction site holds some sort of bond to encourage sellers to be honest. Unfortunately you still have to deal with their nastiness and insults, but appears better than it used to be. Does anyone know the details of how the process actually works?

BrianShaw · Nov 8, 2019

I have been buying on eBay for many years. Many purchases. Never had a reason to consider either eBay or the sellers I’ve bought from to be evil. Not even with the word ‘evil’ in quotes to mask some unstated implication. Any grumpy seller behavior is easily ignored.

You bought a piece of junk that may or may not have been salvagable. You took a rick and lost this time. Better luck next time. The seller took it back and refunded your money. What more did you want?

thuggins · Nov 8, 2019

BrianShaw said:
The seller took it back and refunded your money. What more did you want?

Perhaps an answer, or at least some insight, to the question I asked. Did you even read the posting? I was asking how the guarantee worked. The specific circumstances of this purchase were merely provided to give context.

And anyone who has never heard it referred to as "The Evil Auction Site" is quite naive. That term is used extensively on this forum. Anyone who has used it for any length of time is keenly aware of the unethical and illegal behaviors the site has fostered thru the years.

DonJ · Nov 8, 2019

thuggins said:
A goodly portion of folks on this site have probably used the Evil Auction Site at some point to buy camera gear. I won't get into the details of why it is evil, but suffice it to say that the general rule was never spend more than you are willing to lose, as you had a very real chance of being scammed. Recently I noticed that auction listings have a notation what the "Seller doesn't accept returns, but you're still protected by the (Evil Auction Site) protection plan". I always wondered how this worked but never really dug into it.

Recently I bought a camera that was described as needing work, but having good glass and repairable with minor effort. Interestingly enough, the seller didn't disclaim all knowledge about cameras. Instead he claimed extensive photography experience and oddly used this to justify why he didn't accept returns.

The camera came with a slow shutter and frozen helicoid. No problem, that was expected and I set about making things right. On removing the glass. the rear element turned out to be just a random lens jammed in place to make things look good. So much for "good glass" and "repairable". But the body of the camera was in good shape and I figured I could pick up a replacement shutter with a lens and call it good. Then it became apparent that the retaining ring had been glued in place, obviously to try and cover up the kluged lens.

At that point I had enough and availed myself of the "money back guarantee". This turn out to just be a link to contact the seller, so I sent an email requesting a refund. He sent back the usual hate screed, questioning my parentage and accusing me of kidnapping the Lindbergh baby. But after wading thru all his vitriol, the guy actually offered to take the camera back! I still had to pay for postage both ways, but in spite of everything that had happened I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt that he was not aware of the problems.

From this experience I assume that the guarantee is really that the auction site holds some sort of bond to encourage sellers to be honest. Unfortunately you still have to deal with their nastiness and insults, but appears better than it used to be. Does anyone know the details of how the process actually works?

Actually, the general rule is "never SELL more than you are willing to lose, as you had a very real chance of being scammed."

I find it odd that you label it "evil" without ever bothering to learn about its buyer protection policies, which are, to say the least, quite robust. Anyone who has used it for any length of time SHOULD BE keenly aware of these policies. Based on your description of the situation, you didn't even use those protections in this case. If you had, you would have been reimbursed for postage both ways, in addition to the purchase price of the item.

The key to activating buyer protection in your case is to click on the "Resolution Center" link at the bottom of the web page, and report that the item you received did not match the seller's description. The seller then has the option to offer a partial refund (which you can reject), a full refund after the item is returned at the seller's expense, or a full refund without requiring a return. There is a fourth option, under which the seller disputes your claim, but unless the buyer has sent the seller a message admitting to fraud or to altering the item, the buyer would win the dispute. You apparently made a simple request to return, and the sellers "no returns" policy stuck you with the postage charges.

cramej · Nov 8, 2019

I've found that the policy can work against honest sellers. I sold a lens clearly labeled and photographed as damaged so I checked the little box in the listing for "no returns". The buyer received it, basically said "it arrived damaged" (which is supposed to be for damage in transit) and asked ebay for a return. Because of the way their process works, I had no choice but to accept it and pay for the postage back to me unless I wanted ebay to ding my seller rating and eventually just take the money from paypal and refund the buyer. The best part is that it arrived back to me with an accessory damaged from poor packaging on the buyer's part and I had no recourse for that. The buyer said "sorry, that part was only worth like $30 anyway." The accessory went in the trash and made the lens worth a bit less.

BrianShaw · Nov 8, 2019

thuggins said:
Perhaps an answer, or at least some insight, to the question I asked. Did you even read the posting? I was asking how the guarantee worked. The specific circumstances of this purchase were merely provided to give context.

And anyone who has never heard it referred to as "The Evil Auction Site" is quite naive. That term is used extensively on this forum. Anyone who has used it for any length of time is keenly aware of the unethical and illegal behaviors the site has fostered thru the years.

Yes, I read every word but what, other than responding like an ass, makes you think I didn’t read your post?

I can’t answer your specific question. I don’t know how the eBay satisfaction guarantee works. Sorry. Glad you got satisfaction on the deal and hope you get the info you seek.

BTW, I’m far from naive. Heard that term and have had the completely opposite experience.

cramej · Nov 8, 2019

Mr Jeremy S Rundle said:
I had one problem, a French person who insisted that the video camera I sold didn't work and insisted on a refund which I had to give, he left negative feedback, when it came back I videoed myself using it in a mirror, complained in writing to Ebay, which you CAN do, and they gave me a refund, deleted his negative feedback and gave HIm a warning. I now do NOT sell anywhere other than the UK

As for badly packed returns, you do have recourse, you simply take a photograph of the inadequate packaging and damage and open a claim.

I had typed up some complaints about the transaction but never sent them. I just needed to cool off to realize that I really wasn't out much and I didn't want an ebay dispute going on who knows how long over $30. I did send the guy a sternly worded message about his practice and packing.

removed account4 · Nov 8, 2019

thuggins said:
Perhaps an answer, or at least some insight, to the question I asked. Did you even read the posting? I was asking how the guarantee worked. The specific circumstances of this purchase were merely provided to give context.

And anyone who has never heard it referred to as "The Evil Auction Site" is quite naive. That term is used extensively on this forum. Anyone who has used it for any length of time is keenly aware of the unethical and illegal behaviors the site has fostered thru the years.

Hi Tim:
Here is how the guarantee works ---
You use PayPal, and if you don't get your item
or it is different than advertised or broken &c, you
go to Paypal directly,
even if the seller says " NO RETURNS" &c, because no returns doesn't exist if you use PayPal PayPal REQUIRES sellers to accept returns )
You have up to a certain time after the sale ( 40 days? 60days? 90days? I cant' remember ).
Anyways, when you contact PayPal, you escalate your claim right as soon as you call,
don't bother going through ebay or the seller, to paypal and escalate! .. PP will contact the seller and if s/he won't refund your $$ PP will.
Paypal also gives you $$ to pay for shipping back to the seller if the seller refuses to pay for that as well. Sometimes sellers
don't want to be bothered, they don't want the item so they ignore PayPal, and if that's the case you might get a refund the item.

Good luck with your hunting and gathering
John

ps. These days I only buy photo paper on ebay, if and only if they fan all the paper out on a table to show me what is in the box, the last thing I want is an empty box, or not much paper !

thuggins · Nov 8, 2019

I appreciate the folks who take the time to provide some useful information. But some of the the descriptions given here don't comport with what I actually experienced.

DonJ said:
Actually, the general rule is "never SELL more than you are willing to lose, as you had a very real chance of being scammed."

I have had customers deliberately damage items and claim it happened in transit. In one case the piece nested in the interior of the assembly had obvious marks from the jaws of the vise the buyer used to crush it. So your point is well taken.

DonJ said:
I find it odd that you label it "evil" without ever bothering to learn about its buyer protection policies, which are, to say the least, quite robust. Anyone who has used it for any length of time SHOULD BE keenly aware of these policies. Based on your description of the situation, you didn't even use those protections in this case. If you had, you would have been reimbursed for postage both ways, in addition to the purchase price of the item.

I've been using the site for more than twenty years and during that time their policies and procedures have gone thru many changes. So, yes, I have "bothered" many times to learn their current policies. For most of their existence the policies strongly protected sellers because sellers paid the fee. They had no vested interest at all in the buyer and 100% interest in the seller (unlike Catawicki for example). I took a number of years off from using the site, so this policy was new when I came back. This new policy is a complete 180 from how the site ran for most of its existence.

DonJ said:
The key to activating buyer protection in your case is to click on the "Resolution Center" link at the bottom of the web page, and report that the item you received did not match the seller's description. The seller then has the option to offer a partial refund (which you can reject), a full refund after the item is returned at the seller's expense, or a full refund without requiring a return. There is a fourth option, under which the seller disputes your claim, but unless the buyer has sent the seller a message admitting to fraud or to altering the item, the buyer would win the dispute. You apparently made a simple request to return, and the sellers "no returns" policy stuck you with the postage charges.

What you describe is actually along the lines of what I was expecting. But that is not how it worked. Going to the Resolution Center only offered the option to email the seller to request a return. There was a notice that said the site would intercede if there was no response in something like three or four days, but short of that there was no proactive involvement from the site. As I mentioned regarding the postage both ways, I was willing to accept that as a comprise. Despite the aggressive nastiness, insults and accusations from the seller I will still do my best to meet people half way.

jnantz said:
Hi Tim:
Here is how the guarantee works ---
You use PayPal, and if you don't get your item
or it is different than advertised or broken &c, you
go to Paypal directly,
even if the seller says " NO RETURNS" &c, because no returns doesn't exist if you use PayPal PayPal REQUIRES sellers to accept returns )
You have up to a certain time after the sale ( 40 days? 60days? 90days? I cant' remember ).
Anyways, when you contact PayPal, you escalate your claim right as soon as you call,
don't bother going through ebay or the seller, to paypal and escalate! .. PP will contact the seller and if s/he won't refund your $$ PP will.
Paypal also gives you $$ to pay for shipping back to the seller if the seller refuses to pay for that as well. Sometimes sellers
don't want to be bothered, they don't want the item so they ignore PayPal, and if that's the case you might get a refund the item.

That is how it always used to work before the site bought Paypal. You are correct that your protection came thru Paypal, although working with Paypal was never very easy. But they bought Paypal quite a while back, so there is no longer difference between the two. Now when you buy an item, the purchase details come up directly on the site and you pay right from there. I always assumed they use Paypal as the payment processor (which is why they bought them in the first place), but that is all behind the scenes now. This experience verified that assumption as the refund was processed thru Paypay directly to my card. I guess you could do it the old way where you proactively go to the Paypal site, but I don't actually see that would be any different.

DonJ · Nov 8, 2019

thuggins said:
What you describe is actually along the lines of what I was expecting. But that is not how it worked. Going to the Resolution Center only offered the option to email the seller to request a return. There was a notice that said the site would intercede if there was no response in something like three or four days, but short of that there was no proactive involvement from the site. As I mentioned regarding the postage both ways, I was willing to accept that as a comprise. Despite the aggressive nastiness, insults and accusations from the seller I will still do my best to meet people half way.

I just stepped through the process, up to the "Send" button. It worked as follows:

Click on "Resolution Center"
Select "I received an item that does not match the seller's description." radio button, and click "Continue"
Select the item from the list of your purchases that is displayed
Read the screen, which says: "If your item arrives damaged, doesn't match the listing description, or is the wrong item, you can return it for a refund. If you've changed your mind and want to return it, you can ask the seller if they'll accept a return.", and click "Continue"
Select a reason from the drop-down list, which includes "not as described" conditions as well as other reasons. If you select "Arrived damaged" or one of the other "not as described options, eBay displays the following message: "Once you send this request, you'll see an option to print a return label.'. This label is paid for by the seller.
Add photos, if desired
Click "Send" to open the case

Please note the statement in #4 about returning because you changed your mind, ordered the wrong thing, etc. If, and only if, you select one of those, eBay tells you that you'll be on the hook to pay for postage.

This has been the procedure for years. There's no reason why you should have been out the postage, other than selecting the wrong option.

DonJ · Nov 8, 2019

thuggins said:
But they bought Paypal quite a while back, so there is no longer difference between the two.

They spun off PayPal as a separate company more than four years ago, and have been in the process of migrating the payment system to another service for two years. So there certainly is a difference between the two. In fact, you can open a case with eBay, and if you lose, file again with PayPal. And you still have credit card protection, if you paid that way.

removed account4 · Nov 8, 2019

thuggins said:
That is how it always used to work before the site bought Paypal. You are correct that your protection came thru Paypal, although working with Paypal was never very easy. But they bought Paypal quite a while back, so there is no longer difference between the two. Now when you buy an item, the purchase details come up directly on the site and you pay right from there. I always assumed they use Paypal as the payment processor (which is why they bought them in the first place), but that is all behind the scenes now. This experience verified that assumption as the refund was processed thru Paypay directly to my card. I guess you could do it the old way where you proactively go to the Paypal site, but I don't actually see that would be any different.

Hi Tim:
Yeah they bought them when their own " bidpay" flopped, and nope, they are not the same anymore. Yeah, it's always a hassle getting to the right person whether it is paypal or sears or kmart, there's alway obstacles they put in front of you to make sure you are "serious"... Yep go proactively directly to paypal and you are good to go every time ! The difference is you don't deal with eBoink, and their nonsense and a seller that might be a PITA but paypal who specifically says they give you the peace of mind to pay with them because they offer the same credit card protections that your credit cards offer. They say it takes a week or 2 but its never that long. AND they offer the same hassle free warrantee with overseas sellers. My better half once bought a dress from some amazon seller and paid via PayPal .. it was like $10-SHIPPED or something crazy like that .. It arrived wrong color and wrong fit, and the Paypal had our back, and even paid for the return shipping, which was something like $60. People badmouth pay pall all the time but i've never had anything but good experiences with them as a seller of stuff or buyer if stuff.. been with them more than 20 years i think ...
good luck !
john

Ariston · Nov 8, 2019

I have had good experience buying from ebay, but am afraid to sell anything pricey on there because they lean heavily toward the buyer, it seems.

I just posted on another thread that I was actually able to buy a Squaretrade warranty on a camera I bought that is around 40 years old. No deductible, and they pay parts and labor (or, more likely, the cost of the camrra). This is insane to me, but true. I got a good price and a warranty on an old beater.

thuggins · Nov 9, 2019

DonJ said:
I just stepped through the process, up to the "Send" button. It worked as follows:

Click on "Resolution Center"

Select "I received an item that does not match the seller's description." radio button, and click "Continue"

Select the item from the list of your purchases that is displayed

Read the screen, which says: "If your item arrives damaged, doesn't match the listing description, or is the wrong item, you can return it for a refund. If you've changed your mind and want to return it, you can ask the seller if they'll accept a return.", and click "Continue"

Select a reason from the drop-down list, which includes "not as described" conditions as well as other reasons. If you select "Arrived damaged" or one of the other "not as described options, eBay displays the following message: "Once you send this request, you'll see an option to print a return label.'. This label is paid for by the seller.

Add photos, if desired

Click "Send" to open the case

Please note the statement in #4 about returning because you changed your mind, ordered the wrong thing, etc. If, and only if, you select one of those, eBay tells you that you'll be on the hook to pay for postage.

This has been the procedure for years. There's no reason why you should have been out the postage, other than selecting the wrong option.

I don't doubt that is what you see. It is fairly obvious from this that they have variations in the process depending on how you navigate to the Resolution Center. If the issue ever comes up again I will be sure to find the process you describe.

But I still have the original question. Where does the site get the money from if the seller refuses to respond? Do sellers have to post a bond or something now to cover this sort of situation?

removed account4 · Nov 9, 2019

thuggins said:
I don't doubt that is what you see. It is fairly obvious from this that they have variations in the process depending on how you navigate to the Resolution Center. If the issue ever comes up again I will be sure to find the process you describe.

But I still have the original question. Where does the site get the money from if the seller refuses to respond? Do sellers have to post a bond or something now to cover this sort of situation?

Hi Tim
THAT is why I only pay with PayPal ! It's in their PayPal Account (or linked to it) and PayPal will extract the $, its part of their code ( unless a seller suckers you into friends and family ). If you are talking about an ebay sale with no paypal? Good luck with that, I dont' know where the $$ comes from, I think people would have to take the other person to small claims court and even then they might not get paid. ... thats the beauty of PayPal .. it works.

BrianShaw · Nov 9, 2019

thuggins said:
But I still have the original question. Where does the site get the money from if the seller refuses to respond? Do sellers have to post a bond or something now to cover this sort of situation?

This is only a hunch based on the couple of times I asked credit card companies about fraud resolutions... they told me that they either subrogate or, more often, eat the loss. I suspect they eat more than they subrogate. It never mattered to me how they do it as long as I was made whole. But i suspect that they ways of making their money back... from us ultimately.

mgb74 · Nov 9, 2019

thuggins said:
I don't doubt that is what you see. It is fairly obvious from this that they have variations in the process depending on how you navigate to the Resolution Center. If the issue ever comes up again I will be sure to find the process you describe.

But I still have the original question. Where does the site get the money from if the seller refuses to respond? Do sellers have to post a bond or something now to cover this sort of situation?

I've had a number of "not as described" purchases in the past year (not uncommon when buying older gear listed as "used"). Never a problem getting my money back, including return shipping. In one case, the seller never responded to ebay and they (ebay) still refunded. As to where the refunded money comes from, I assume they reach back via paypal. Paypal will refund from balance or reach back to payment sources (bank account, credit card). If that all fails, I suspect ebay eats it as a cost of doing business.

Bottom line, ebay is a pretty darn safe place to buy if you know the rules and what each category of condition means. I'm more worried as a seller than as a buyer.

mshchem · Nov 9, 2019

Never buy from a seller with a rating less than normal body temperature (98.6 F) even then I look carefully at what they are selling. People that haven't a clue what they are selling are best avoided. Still in general, I've had very good experience buying. I've sold a few items, but I usually just pay a friend to sell or send stuff to KEH.

DonJ · Nov 9, 2019

thuggins said:
I don't doubt that is what you see. It is fairly obvious from this that they have variations in the process depending on how you navigate to the Resolution Center. If the issue ever comes up again I will be sure to find the process you describe.

But I still have the original question. Where does the site get the money from if the seller refuses to respond? Do sellers have to post a bond or something now to cover this sort of situation?

eBay simply adds the refund amount to the seller’s monthly invoice. If the seller turns off automatic payments in order to avoid the charge, they lose their selling privileges. eBay will also turn a seller’s account over to a collection agency to get their money.

Alan Edward Klein · Nov 9, 2019

I'm confused about the ebay Paypal relation. If I have camera equipment I want to sell, how do I do it so I'm protected from unscrupulous buyers?

removed account4 · Nov 9, 2019

Alan Edward Klein said:
I'm confused about the ebay Paypal relation. If I have camera equipment I want to sell, how do I do it so I'm protected from unscrupulous buyers?

Hi Alan
As a seller you are protected if you have a wicked good feedback rating, have like 1,000,000 photographs, you show and explain every flaw your camera equipment might have, AND you say the buyer can return the item no questions asked and have a full refund. The thing to avoid is saying that you are "selling it for a friend" have "no clue how anything works or if it works" "being sold as-is with absolutely positively NO REFUNDS/ ALL SALES FINAL" refuse to accept PayPal, and ship regular 1st class mail, un insured, un registered with no proof of shipping.
Their relation is maybe they are "kissin' cousins"...

Alan Edward Klein · Nov 9, 2019

jnantz said:
Hi Alan
As a seller you are protected if you have a wicked good feedback rating, have like 1,000,000 photographs, you show and explain every flaw your camera equipment might have, AND you say the buyer can return the item no questions asked and have a full refund. The thing to avoid is saying that you are "selling it for a friend" have "no clue how anything works or if it works" "being sold as-is with absolutely positively NO REFUNDS/ ALL SALES FINAL" refuse to accept PayPal, and ship regular 1st class mail, un insured, un registered with no proof of shipping.
Their relation is maybe they are "kissin' cousins"...

Well, I'm not a seller yet, so I have no "street creds", no good feedback rating. But I do have camera equipment and other stuff I want to sell from time to time. Can you or someone explain the process?

DonJ · Nov 10, 2019

Alan Edward Klein said:
I'm confused about the ebay Paypal relation. If I have camera equipment I want to sell, how do I do it so I'm protected from unscrupulous buyers?

There is no way to be fully protected from an unscrupulous buyer if you sell on eBay.

BobD · Nov 10, 2019

I’ve been selling (and buying) on eBay since it first started back in 1997 and I have FB rating well over 10,000. About 90% of my business is camera gear and the rest is general vintage collectibles.

I have not found most eBay sellers to be “evil” – quite the contrary. However, many who sell camera items are clueless about film gear and make mistakes in their descriptions out of confusion or ignorance. As a buyer I’ve never had any trouble returning significantly not-as-described items and I have often benefited from sellers’ ignorance and gotten great deals on things. In fact, when a return of an item is requested, it’s not unusual for the seller to simply refund me and say, “sorry about that -- no need to return it.” (on low priced items, anyway)

Over the years I’ve run into a very few “evil” ones but they have almost always been buyers, not sellers.

removed account4 · Nov 10, 2019

Hi Alan
I dont' really have much experience as a seller, I've mostly been a buyer. I'm not sure what your feedback rating is but if you really want to sell things maybe just start selling little things to get the hang of it. the system they have now to write up descriptions and load photographs is pretty easy to use. little things like bold face, or nuances to get buyer's attentions cost a few cents more than a no frills page, and sometimes listing fees are waved when the site runs some sort of special promotion to get more people to sell stuff. if you sell little things you will get the hang of it all, and boost your feedback rating so when you want to sell big stuff, photo gear &c your feedback is a little higher. the other way to sell stuff, if you don't have the "street creds" as you said, is to find a listing service. maybe a consignment shop, friend, family member or someplace that actually lists stuff on ebay for a living ( we used to have a few near us during the early 2000s selloff bonanza ) list things for you with their account and you just give them a slice of the pie. actually, i think ebay has listing services "in house" and they do it for people too ( or maybe i am mis-remembering )... you might have to ship it to them though.... good luck !

Pleasant Surprise

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