Platine and Fabriano Artistico Sharpness Issues

Richard Boutwell · Jul 15, 2010

I was comparing prints of the same negative made on Arches Platine and Fabriano Artistico Extra White, and, in addition to greater d-max, Platine was somewhat sharper and cleaner in the shadow separation. I imagine that the increased sharpness would be due to the smoother surface of Platine, and a wondering if there is anything I could do to Atristico (post-acidification) to make it smoother. For what it's worth, I am using the back side of the Artistico because it has a more random texture than the side with the water mark.

Does anyone know what Platine in sized with that gives it a smoother, denser surface?

I am going to try to put a sheet of damp Fabriano in the drymount press prior to coating to see if that helps any. I love Platine, but the price per sheet was starting to take its toll on my wallet, and am now trying to make the Fabriano work for me.

Loris Medici · Jul 16, 2010

Richard, you have to pre-acidify Artistico, in order to make it work (well) with iron processes...

Richard Boutwell · Jul 16, 2010

Loris Medici said:
Richard, you have to pre-acidify Artistico, in order to make it work (well) with iron processes...

I have acidified the fabriano with oxalic acid (and then I read your post somewhere about how the resulting neutralized agent becomes insoluble in water). I used it back in October with great success, and then ran out of paper and chemistry. I acidified now with new paper and chemistry, and am finding it is just not as good as Platine.

I am experimenting with double coating platine right now. The first coat of ferric oxalate, palladium, and NA2 is diluted to 50% with distilled water. Once that is dry I am doing a second coat with a 100% ferric oxalatealladium solution. The first try clearing right now, but looks really great wet (dont' they always . . . ).

I will throw up some scans of the sharpness issues as soon as I can.

Loris Medici · Jul 16, 2010

Ok, your statement "post-acidification" was a typo then...

I remember reading about people needing longer and/or stronger soaks to make Artistico work, probably the paper changed a little bit and you need to adjust your workflow...

Good luck!

Richard Boutwell · Jul 16, 2010

Oh, what I meant was: after the paper is acidified and air-dried it has more texture than when it comes from the factory. I was hoping there was something that could be done after clearing the buffer that would make it smoother/denser and ultimately sharper.

Loris Medici · Jul 16, 2010

I see, I don't think it's solely due the acidification. Just use plain water to see, and you'll most probably notice a similar change in surface qualities... (IME, all papers somehow change after wet cycle.) OTOH, if oxalic acid acidification does something different and/or more pronounced to the surface, then you already know my stance...

Regards,
Loris.

Marco B · Jul 16, 2010

Richard Boutwell said:
Oh, what I meant was: after the paper is acidified and air-dried it has more texture than when it comes from the factory.

Loris Medici said:
I see, I don't think it's solely due the acidification. Just use plain water to see, and you'll most probably notice a similar change in surface qualities... (IME, all papers somehow change after wet cycle.)

I agree with Loris, the change in paper structure is probably only related to soaking it, not the acidification... I have had similar experience with liquid emulsion and different papers. The paper fibres swell during soaking, and just don't dry as flat again. Probably during manufacturing, some type of pressure is used to create the smooth texture of the manufactured paper. Don't they call it "heat" or "cold" pressed papers?

Peter Schrager · Jul 16, 2010

Paper

Richard- I have been using most of the papers available but like the Lanaaquarelle in Ammonium /citrate dev...been using the palladium process
not the na2....paper must be treated also but they are very sharp to my eye
Best, Peter

TheFlyingCamera · Jul 16, 2010

I've been a huge devotee of the Bergger COT320, which seems to be about the most viceless pt/pd paper. You pay accordingly, but there's no need to double-coat or acidify. I think part of your problem is that you're using the backside of the paper. You may not like the pattern of the front, but it is pressed and rolled to give a tighter texture even when wet.

Whiteymorange · Jul 16, 2010

The surface of the paper you choose makes a difference. As has been said, the paper is rolled to get a certain texture, which will definitely affect the outcome of shadow detail. You might try drying the paper, after you acidify it, in contact with a very smooth sheet of metal, such as a ferrotype plate. One of the print dryers that uses a heated metal patten and a cloth to keep the paper in contact with it would work. This flattens the surface fibers and is an old trick of those who make paper by hand to get something that can be more easily used as writing paper.

doughowk · Jul 16, 2010

I use Arches Platine on larger prints and COT320 for 8X10s. Would use COT320 for all if I could afford it because the detail is superior. Tried F. Aristico with oxalic acid bath, but it seemed to remove some of the sizing before coating, so didn't get a comparable print.

Colin Graham · Jul 16, 2010

TheFlyingCamera said:
I've been a huge devotee of the Bergger COT320, which seems to be about the most viceless pt/pd paper. You pay accordingly, but there's no need to double-coat or acidify. I think part of your problem is that you're using the backside of the paper. You may not like the pattern of the front, but it is pressed and rolled to give a tighter texture even when wet.

Where are you getting Cot320? No one seems to have it except B&S, and they've been out of stock for some time.

TheFlyingCamera · Jul 16, 2010

I have a stash of it right now, and B&S is expecting it back in soon, at least the last time I spoke to them they were, which was just a few weeks ago.

doughowk · Jul 16, 2010

COT320 - Call Leigh Sullivan at B&S. They're suppose to have a shipment middle next month.

Colin Graham · Jul 17, 2010

Thanks for the info, hope to try it when they get it in.

Alan Davenport · Aug 9, 2010

doughowk said:
...Tried F. Aristico with oxalic acid bath, but it seemed to remove some of the sizing before coating, so didn't get a comparable print.

I've used Artistico quite a bit and I always resize it after the oxalic acid bath(5%) with a starch solution of 1 part stayflo starch to 2 parts water.

Alan

Jarvman · Nov 9, 2012

BUMP:

Thought I'd revive this exchange rather than creating a new thread.

When acidifying paper do I soak one sheet at a time in a tray? Are there any problems caused when soaking multiple sheets together in oxalic acid solution? Also, once the paper has been in for long enough, what do I do next? I assume just drip dry and hang to air dry to completion. Cheers for your help.

DennyS · Nov 9, 2012

I normally acidify 8 sheets at a time, keeping them moving in the tray, and drip dry. If the sheets end up with a lot of curl I flatten in a dry mount press. A few more details here:
http://www.dennisspector.com/technotes/platinum_workflow.html
Denny

Jarvman · Nov 10, 2012

Cheers Denis, Will try doing a similar amount in one go. Do you shuffle through the stack, moving the top sheet to the bottom for example?

DennyS · Nov 10, 2012

I don't shuffle the sheets, but I do separate them by lifting each one a bit to allow fresh solution to circulate.

Platine and Fabriano Artistico Sharpness Issues

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