Plate camera questions

If I want to shoot plates (dry or wet) do I need a plate camera, or is it possible to shoot them with a large format film camera(4x5 for instance)?

Conversely, can you shoot normal 4x5 film in a quarter plate camera?

I guess my question comes down to the interchangeability of the format sizes. If I want to shoot both 4x5 film as well as plates, do I need dedicated cameras for each, or can I pick up a cheap plate camera and get after it?

You can shoot film or dry plates in most LF cameras. It's the film/plate holder that's constructed differently. If you already have a 4x5 camera that takes standard two-sided film holders, you should be able to find dry plate holders fairly easily. Many of the older holders are wood, so warping or light leaks are possible if they are not in good condition. I don't know if some of the newer plastic film holders like Lisco or Fidelity were ever made in plate versions, but I have seen online articles about converting film holders to use plates.

If you wanted to shoot wet plate, then it might be a good idea to have a dedicated camera.

jimjm said:

If you wanted to shoot wet plate, then it might be a good idea to have a dedicated camera.

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Is that just because they can be messier?

That's what I've heard. Never shot wet plates myself, but I understand the chemicals can damage metal or plastic body parts of newer cameras. Older wood cameras are probably best to use.

I have a 5x7 Eastman View #2 I've been using with metal Folmer Graflex holders for sheet film. Decided to try Jason Lane's dry plates and I found some wooden Century plate holders in good condition. Other than the slower speed (ISO 2), pretty much the same as shooting film. Maybe take a bit more care developing the plates, as far as consistent temps, not touching the wet emulsion, etc.

Jason's name here on Photrio is Nodda Duma, and he might be able to answer your question about the plate camera also. Pretty smart guy.

Okay, so I can shoot plates in a 4x5 film camera. But can I shoot film in a quarter plate camera?

Also, just making sure, quarter plate cameras are what I'm seeing when I see plate cameras with 135mm lenses as standard, correct?

Actually, I said the wrong thing. I know quarter plates have a 105mm lens as "normal" and it's half plate that was a 135mm normal.

Don’t know about the lens focal length, but unmodified 4x5 sheet film won’t work in a quarter plate camera simply because it won’t fit in the quarter plate holder and a 4x5 holder won’t fit in the camera. Quarter plate is smaller than 4x5.

You have options, though. You can cut down 4x5 sheet film to fit quarter plate.

You can *I think* also order some during Ilford’s annual “we don’t usually make film in this size” event which is ongoing right now.

Or I can make quarter plates. They are a stock size through my online store.

Keep in mind there’s a difference between a plate holder and a sheet film holder. Match the media to the holder.

Cheers,
Jason

Sam,
I do wet plate collodion work in 4x5, 5x7, and 8x10. The 4x5 camera is an Intrepid folding camera, the 5x7 is a rickety old Seneca I got for $100, lens included, and the 8x10 is a 1930s Deardorff. All three of these cameras were designed to be used as sheet film cameras, but the only thing that needs to be done to make them usable for wet plate work is to acquire an appropriate plate holder. If its 4x5 you want to do (and I suggest you avoid traditional wet plate sizes, because those will limit what else you can do) then Lund Photographics makes a serviceable 4x5 wet/dry plate holder for just under $100, and Chamonix makes a beautiful wood one for about $140. The Lund holder is mostly plastic, so it can be taken apart and scrubbed with soap and water if it ever needs a "deep cleaning". (The reason people often advocate for a dedicated wet plate collodion camera is that it is inevitable that you will get silver nitrate on the camera, no matter how fastidious your technique, and the silver nitrate will eat the wood and metal parts and eventually destroy them.) Another advantage of the Lund plate holder is that it takes plates exactly 4 x 5 inches, whereas the Chamonix holders are sheet film size, which is about 1/16th inches smaller than 4 x 5 inches, in both dimensions. For that, plates have to be cut to fit exactly. If you have an old wooden guillotine style paper cutter, it does a fine job of cutting aluminum plates to fit specific size holders. But if you want to make it easy on yourself, the Lund plate holder for 4x5 is ideal.

The J. Lane Dry Plates are cut to sheet film standards, so they will for in both the Chamonix plate holder and the Lund Photographics holder (looser fit in the Lund holder, of course)

If you want to perform a DIY film-to-plate holder modification on a film holder you already own, it CAN be done. See this video by Alex Timmermans. My 5x7 camera uses a modified film holder converted to a plate holder (I did it myself) and its perfectly usable. I have two 8x10 plate holders - one is a Fidelity 8x10 film holder that I sent to Lund Photographics to have them modify it for wet plate use. It works well, but it has one disadvantage: it takes plates 7.5" X 9.25" which you have to either cut yourself from larger plates, or Lund will sell you custom cut plates that fit this holder exactly. (In any of these scenarios, if you opt to shoot wet plate on glass, its easy to cut glass at home to fit any plate holder) My other 8x10 plate holder is by Chamonix, and its beautifully crafted from wood and steel. Its both handsome and very easy to use. The dark slides just glide in and out of the slots like no other film or plate holder I have. It also takes sheet film sized plates, which are 1/16th of an inch smaller in both dimensions than 8x10. So you have to trim 8x10 plates yourself, or have someone custom cut to the correct size. Main Trophy Supply will custom cut plates for you to any size you need. I buy about 120 8x10 plates at a time from them, as they are the most economical option. (You can get custom cuts from several wet plate suppliers like Modern Collodion, Bostick & Sullivan, and Lund Photogtraphics.)

The Bottom Line
If I were you (and it seems you are wanting to find a camera that will allow you to shoot both film and wet/dry plates) I would get a standard 4x5 camera kit, and buy or make a wet plate holder for the camera (in addition to film holders) so that all you need to do to change from one process to another is to switch holders. It couldn't be easier. There have been several occasions when I am shooting something and I opt to do several tintypes/glass negs of the shot, but also do a couple sheets of film just as a kind of backup, in case I don't like how the wet plate work looks when finished. Its nice to have that option, and using a standard camera with both styles of holders makes it ridiculously simple. I strongly urge you to make it as easy for yourself (since it seems you are about to jump into plate work for the first time, yes?) and to use a system that is as flexible as possible, and the case I've described will give you Easy and Flexible.

Any questions? Have you bought your wet plate materials yet? Need help choosing what to buy?

Paul
PS: an example image made with my Intrepid 4x5 camera (with 1940s Kodak Ektar 203mm lens). This is a scan of a 4x5 inch glass negative (wet plate collodion on glass)

Paul, good info but I have to correct you on one very important point:

paulbarden said:

Another advantage of the Lund plate holder is that it takes plates exactly 4 x 5 inches, so you can use the J. Lane Dry Plates in it, whereas the Chamonix holders are sheet film size, which is about 1/16th inches smaller than 4 x 5 inches, in both dimensions. For that, plates have to be cut to fit exactly.

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My plates are cut to fit Chamonix holders. He worked with me on this to ensure they would fit. Actual plate dimensions are 100 x 126mm. It’s all in the dry plate thread on the large format photography forum.

In other words, my plates all conform to the speciifications in the current ISO (International Standards Organization) sheet film size standard. I forget the ISO document #. Bottom line is J. Lane Dry Plates fit any plate holders made today as well as antique holders. I didn’t establish the plate sizes in a vacuum.

Nodda Duma said:

Paul, good info but I have to correct you on one very important point:



My plates are cut to fit Chamonix holders. He worked with me on this to ensure they would fit. Actual plate dimensions are 100 x 126mm. It’s all in the dry plate thread on the large format photography forum.

In other words, my plates all conform to the speciifications in the current ISO (International Standards Organization) sheet film size standard. I forget the ISO document #. Bottom line is J. Lane Dry Plates fit any plate holders made today as well as antique holders.

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Oops! Sorry Jason! I've been putting your dry plates in my Lund holder, assuming they didn't fit the Chamonix. My mistake. Apologies. I've corrected the other post to reflect this information.

paulbarden said:

Oops! Sorry Jason! I've been putting your dry plates in my Lund holder, assuming they didn't fit the Chamonix. My mistake. Apologies.

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No worries! The bonus is that as of today you have another dry plate holder! They will be a tight fit but they should fit. Hugo had also sent me a holder which he affirmed was representative of the smallest dimensions in the production tolerance band. While not statistically significant, I was able to affirm that random plates pulled out of my production would fit them.

That is really everything I wanted to know. So, if I want to shoot both film and plates, I need a film camera. A plate camera can only shoot plates. That was pretty much my original question.

I've shot wet plate once before (that's what my avatar is) in school, and it was one of the most fun things I did. We had someone come in and explain the process but pretty much set everything up for us as far as chemistry is concerned. We still coated, shot and developed ourselves though. I want to get back into that but I was thinking I would start with dry plates, using both the J. Lane plates and the Rockland Tintype plates as a starting point.

I have a 2x3 Busch Pressman that I might use to give these processes a try. I hear the plates the Rockland kit comes with are pretty easy to cut, so that would give me twice the number of plates to experiment with. But, if a 4x5 camera comes by at a price I can justify before I have a chance to try that, then no big tragedy

I think I want to get that 4x5 camera before doing wet plate. As intensive as the process is, I don't think it is worth it to just make a 2x3 image. But, once I do go down that road, where do you source your wet plate chemicals from?

saman13 said:

That is really everything I wanted to know. So, if I want to shoot both film and plates, I need a film camera. A plate camera can only shoot plates. That was pretty much my original question.

I've shot wet plate once before (that's what my avatar is) in school, and it was one of the most fun things I did. We had someone come in and explain the process but pretty much set everything up for us as far as chemistry is concerned. We still coated, shot and developed ourselves though. I want to get back into that but I was thinking I would start with dry plates, using both the J. Lane plates and the Rockland Tintype plates as a starting point.

I have a 2x3 Busch Pressman that I might use to give these processes a try. I hear the plates the Rockland kit comes with are pretty easy to cut, so that would give me twice the number of plates to experiment with. But, if a 4x5 camera comes by at a price I can justify before I have a chance to try that, then no big tragedy

I think I want to get that 4x5 camera before doing wet plate. As intensive as the process is, I don't think it is worth it to just make a 2x3 image. But, once I do go down that road, where do you source your wet plate chemicals from?

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Sam,
There are several excellent sources for wet plate supplies. If I were you I would just buy one of the complete starter kits from either UV Photographics or Bostick & Sullivan (these are links). When I started doing wet plate at home, I bought one of these kits and never regretted my choice; you’ll get everything you need to start, except a silver tank (you can use regular darkroom trays in a pinch), aluminum plates (the stuff most folks start with, painted black on one side) and a plate holder. Those items have to be sourced separately. (I already provided links to good suppliers in my other post).

As for an affordable camera, there are a few options: you can often find old Graflex press cameras for sale for $250 or less on fleabay. Alternatively, you might find a studio rail type 4x5 (like Sinar) for even less money, as these are less popular designs because they have a much more “clinical” aesthetic. Thirdly, you might consider an Intrepid 4x5, which are current, new designs and very affordable. I have one and I like it a lot. No, it’s no Deardorff, but then I don’t need it to be a Deardorff. It’s a perfectly usable design that offers great flexibility, is easy to use, and because it’s so inexpensive, you don’t need to fret about getting silver nitrate on it, since you can replace it without breaking the bank if it does get ruined.

The Intrepid, with a 1920s Kodak Anastigmat 5.5" lens:


Is $250 within your budget? You need to add another $100 or so for a starter lens too, unless you already have one. I have a friend who has a Sinar rail 4x5 for sale and I think he’s asking $150 for it, with a lens included. I can see if he still has it, if that’s work for you. (I can ship it)

Paul

Those Intrepids are very pretty cameras.

As of right now, $250 is above my budget. I'm applying to medical school right now and the costs are adding up (thousands of dollars just in application costs). $250 is about the cost of a plane flight somewhere for an interview, so it would be hard to justify that to myself on my EMT salary. In fact, I keep going back and forth if it is even worth it to try it out at this point. $150 for a camera and lens seems like a very good deal to me and will make me think seriously about it. I know that's a price I won't be able to easily eat without being very, very patient (and lucky) on ebay but that might be what I'll have to try to do to be able to afford both a camera and the supplies to start shooting. I suppose that's another reason to start with the Rockland kit.

This is a hobby I really enjoy so I might just have to work some overtime to make it happen. I appreciate the offer and will seriously consider it. There are some Graphic Views on ebay right now for pretty good prices as well. I have some decisions to make!

P.S. One thing I'm trying to use to convince myself to make the investment is that in med school interviews, interviewers love to see what interests you in the sciences. What's a better way to show an interest in applied chemistry than a couple of 4x5 tintypes?

Also, I do have one lens that will work on 4x5 from my 2x3 Busch Pressman, a Kodak 170mm f/6.3. Lens I picked up for pretty cheap but I have no complaints with the results I've gotten. So, if I were to pick up a camera body without a lens, I could make do with that being my only lens for a while.

My wife just went through medical school a couple years ago, after switching from a career as a Navy flight test engineer. She graduated as a PA and is now one of the best urgent care providers in the area. Based on her experience and that of her sister (a former Navy doctor), you should shelve the idea of picking up a hobby as involved as photography and focus 110% on your studies starting now. Your EMT background gives you a leg up, but it’s a very short one. If you want to get through with good grades and a good job, you’re going to be living and breathing coursework. Tip: figure out a good system for memorizing stuff. My wife got through with really good grades, but only because she basically didn’t do anything else for the time she was in school. It required all of her focus...and that focus paid off on the backend with a good job and a good reputation. Hard on the family, but it paid off.

Your future patients will appreciate the diligence. Your future self will thank you. That’s my advice speaking from the other side of watching up close someone go through medical school.

The cameras and plates will be here when you’re done.

Sam,
I visited my local camera collector friend yesterday to inquire about the Sinar camera, and it has already been sold. It was $150 and it came with a Fujinon lens and a couple of film holders. No wonder it sold in a hurry!

Nodda Duma said:

My wife just went through medical school a couple years ago, after switching from a career as a Navy flight test engineer. She graduated as a PA and is now one of the best urgent care providers in the area. Based on her experience and that of her sister (a former Navy doctor), you should shelve the idea of picking up a hobby as involved as photography and focus 110% on your studies starting now. Your EMT background gives you a leg up, but it’s a very short one. If you want to get through with good grades and a good job, you’re going to be living and breathing coursework. Tip: figure out a good system for memorizing stuff. My wife got through with really good grades, but only because she basically didn’t do anything else for the time she was in school. It required all of her focus...and that focus paid off on the backend with a good job and a good reputation. Hard on the family, but it paid off.

Your future patients will appreciate the diligence. Your future self will thank you. That’s my advice speaking from the other side of watching up close someone go through medical school.

The cameras and plates will be here when you’re done.

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I agree with that somewhat, but I also think it is important to balance school with something else. I tried to focus on nothing but school my first two years of college and I got decent grades, but nothing great. My last two years, I picked up backpacking and photography and got my best grades of all four years. Obviously you have to be smart about when you decide to have fun with each of those. I know I wont be shooting every day or even every week, but if I can shoot and make a print once a month or two, I'd be happy with that.

That being said, you're probably right about waiting to pick up wet plate photography. It's easy to go down the rabbit hole of alt processes and have that take up a lot of your thought and time. Maybe I'll stick with silver for the time being (but I'm still going to give that Rockland kit a try).

paulbarden said:

Sam,
I visited my local camera collector friend yesterday to inquire about the Sinar camera, and it has already been sold. It was $150 and it came with a Fujinon lens and a couple of film holders. No wonder it sold in a hurry!

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Yep, that is a very good deal. I'm not surprised either.

You make a fair point. Personally I balanced school with girls and drinking. Seemed to work well for me! Oddly enough as I got into the interesting coursework that inherently sucked up more and more of my time. At some point studying became more fun.

Well, I just bought my first large format camera! I got a Busch Pressman D and one 4x5 film holder from KEH for a total price of $62. I can use it with my 170mm Kodak and a self-fabricated lens board so that's a pretty inexpensive intro into the format!

I've had my eye on a pacemaker speed or crown graphic, but I figured if one of those comes up for a good deal I can always sell the Pressman D for what I bought it for. I really wanted one of the graphics due to the availability of lens boards and other accessories (an issue I've run into with my Pressman C) but I couldn't pass up the D at that price. Plus a seller on Ebay sells boards for $22 each so I can get a few of those and be in business.

I also still don't have a 4x5 enlarger (or the space for one, and I'll probably be moving to an even smaller house or apartment in the next year or so) so my plan was to get a Graflarger for enlarging the negs when I wanted more than just contact prints. No Graflok on the Pressman means no Graflarger. So, until I can figure something else out it's contact prints and other 1:1 processes.

Dry plate here I come!

Awesome!

You can scan the plates in the meantime as well. You will also need a plateholder to accommodate the thickness of the glass.

Cheers,
Jason

Nodda Duma said:

Awesome!

You can scan the plates in the meantime as well. You will also need a plateholder to accommodate the thickness of the glass.

Cheers,
Jason

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That’s one thing I’ve been wondering about. When looking at “plate holders” on ebay, how can you know if a holder is made for a 4x5 camera or a 3.5x5.5 plate camera? I feel like these wouldn’t be interchangeable.

And do plate holders for a 4x5 camera hold plates that are 4x5, or 3.5x5.5?

saman13 said:

That’s one thing I’ve been wondering about. When looking at “plate holders” on ebay, how can you know if a holder is made for a 4x5 camera or a 3.5x5.5 plate camera? I feel like these wouldn’t be interchangeable.

And do plate holders for a 4x5 camera hold plates that are 4x5, or 3.5x5.5?

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First, I suggest you NOT look for a plate holder on eBay. Why? Because most sellers offering plate holders on eBay are selling vintage equipment, and most of those are odd sizes that do NOT match with modern standard 4x5 equipment.
Why I do suggest you do is buy a 4x5 plate holder made by one of the current manufacturers, such as Lund Photographics, or Chamonix. I have one from each manufacturer and each has its merits. If you have difficulty finding these manufacturers (you shouldn't) then ask me how to locate their products.

As for plate sizes for these two plate holder types: the Lund design is made to take plates exactly 4X5 inches, whereas the Chamonix plate holder is made to match current sheet film sizes, and that is 1/16th inch smaller in both dimensions than 4x5 inches. IE: it needs plates of 3&15/16ths X 4&15/16ths. Questions?

Paul

What about the Linhof plate/film holders?

@Nodda Duma Jason, do you know if your plates fit in these holders?

The only Linhoff plate holder I've tested was a 1/4 plate holder, and my 1/4 plates fit just fine.

Speaking of new plate holders ..



(Still a work in progress)