plate camera identification

Young He · Oct 25, 2017

Hello all,

I bought a 9x12cm (I think) folding camera although it could be a quarter plate, from measuring the ground glass. The ground glass holder is labeled Nagel, but this camera looks nothing like the Nagel cameras I saw with my google search. The shutter is a dial-set Compur made around 1914 judging from the serial number, and the lens is a 135 mm Zeiss Tessar, probably from around the same date. The bellows is double extension and there is a 1/2 inch tripod screw on the side of the case, and a 3/4 inch screw on the bottom, which I believe indicates German origin. I have a few pictures, if they are too low quality I will try and upload less compressed ones. I would appreciate any help. Thanks.

shutterfinger · Oct 25, 2017

What is the lens serial number, its not readily readable in your photo?

P.S. seeing pictures this is more of a large format field camera design. Press cameras fold up similarly but I would not call them a folder.

Young He · Oct 26, 2017

The lens serial number is 255546. It is a Carl Zeiss Tessar 135mm f/4.5. This is likely not a 4x5" camera and is smaller than 4x5 inches, so it is medium format technically.

shutterfinger · Oct 26, 2017

2 1/4 x 3 1/4 is considered Large Format if the camera uses sheet film, but convert the inches to centimeters and you have 6 x 9 Medium format.
A lens Collectors Vade Mecum has some Zeiss serial numbers, yours is in a gap between 1914 and 1915.
Its neither Large or medium format, its a Plate camera.

Ian Grant · Oct 26, 2017

it's a 9x12 plate camera, these were used as Press cameras in Europe, adide from rise they have no features of field cameras.

shutterfinger said:
2 1/4 x 3 1/4 is considered Large Format if the camera uses sheet film, but convert the inches to centimeters and you have 6 x 9 Medium format.
A lens Collectors Vade Mecum has some Zeiss serial numbers, yours is in a gap between 1914 and 1915.
Its neither Large or medium format, its a Plate camera.

It's unlikely to be a Quarter plate camera, and at that time even 9x12 was considered Medium Format.

Ian

anfenglin · Oct 26, 2017

Well, 135mm or 13,5cm is the standard focal length for 9x12 film as it was used for a long time. Sometimes there are 12cm or 15cm lenses but mostly it is 13,5cm.

The back may have been coming from a Nagel camera but the camera can be anything, some small shops even built them themselves and just bought bellows, lens and shutter.
Some backs and screen holders are interchangeable, there are certain types of folds, "Falz" in German (meaning a fold (noun)), so you could use and / or buy additional film cassettes
which didn't have to be branded by the maker of you camera (and thus were cheaper).

The Tessar is a very good lens, even so today, back then it was the best you could get, on par with a Heliar which is a five lens design.
But then a Heliar was much more expensive.

So it could be anything, sometimes there is a name on the front door, at the bottom between the rails, sometimes there is something printed in the hand strap.
Maybe you can find something there but judging from the shutter, it was built after 1908 roughly, before that it was compounds, later ring set compurs.
Maybe the twenties? A serial number would help.
regards

Ian Grant · Oct 26, 2017

It's something like a Hüttig/ICA Ideal, it's very hard to do accurate identifications as there were so many different manufacturers. ICA was part of the Zeiss geoup and were formed by the amalgamation of Hüttig, Krügener, Wünsche, and Carl Zeiss Palmos.

Ian

anfenglin · Oct 26, 2017

Yes, the Zeiss Ikon from Dresden from before the war, it has nothing or almost nothing to do with the Zeiss Ikon from after the war.
Well, something, there was a VEB Zeiss Ikon in Dresden after the war, it built the Ercona, Ercona II and later the Pentacon Contax, then got renamed and renamed until it was Pentacon, starting from 1964.
Zeiss Ikon in West Germany was in Stuttgart and existed until 1989, was sold and basically does not exist any more.
The 35mm range finder Zeiss Ikon is a Zeiss camera, built by the Carl Zeiss AG which now only is called ZEISS.

Well, as Ian said, the Zeiss Ikon built a lot of various cameras right after the merger, so there are lots and lots of variations.
There is a good possibility that one can not be certain what make the camera actually is.

Nagel was a company from Stuttgart that was bought by Kodak, they went on to build the Retinas, before they also built 9x12 cameras.

Young He · Oct 26, 2017

Thanks for the help. There seems to be no sort of serial number or name on the plate camera itself, and as many of the 9x12 plate cameras look very similar, it is probably very unlikely that I will get the brand or model of the camera. It seems like a decent camera, and I plan on using it for some alternative processes, after I clean the lens of some haze.

shutterfinger · Oct 26, 2017

I have the same lens/shutter combination on a 1936 Speed Graphic with all serial numbers dating to 1936.

anfenglin · Oct 27, 2017

The serial number is on the shutter, in most cases on the side sonewhere

Ian Grant · Oct 27, 2017

anfenglin said:
Yes, the Zeiss Ikon from Dresden from before the war, it has nothing or almost nothing to do with the Zeiss Ikon from after the war.
Well, something, there was a VEB Zeiss Ikon in Dresden after the war, it built the Ercona, Ercona II and later the Pentacon Contax, then got renamed and renamed until it was Pentacon, starting from 1964.
Zeiss Ikon in West Germany was in Stuttgart and existed until 1989, was sold and basically does not exist any more.
The 35mm range finder Zeiss Ikon is a Zeiss camera, built by the Carl Zeiss AG which now only is called ZEISS.

Well, as Ian said, the Zeiss Ikon built a lot of various cameras right after the merger, so there are lots and lots of variations.
There is a good possibility that one can not be certain what make the camera actually is.

Nagel was a company from Stuttgart that was bought by Kodak, they went on to build the Retinas, before they also built 9x12 cameras.

I think you're a generation and a world war out, the Serial number of the lens is 1914/5. The Ideal was one of the 9x12 cameras in production for the longest first made by Hüttig from 1908, then ICA from 1909, it was a few years before the merger to fo form Zeiss Ikonta in 1926. The dial set shutter speed dial of Ikonta's carried the name.

shutterfinger said:
I have the same lens/shutter combination on a 1936 Speed Graphic with all serial numbers dating to 1936.

It's quite unusual to find a dial set Comput on a 1936 lens, but not totally unknown my CZJ 165mm f5.3 Tessar is around that age and in a Dial set Compur.

Ian

plate camera identification

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