Plat/Pal printing bleeding!

photomc said:

Agree with Gerhard completely. I started with Cranes Kid Finish (#32), then after a good butt chewing by Jorge for using crappy paper, moved to COT320/Platine (found Arches Platine is really the same as COT320 with some minor difference) then tried Platinotype (aka Cranes Cover Stock). Now, I still like Platinotype for VDB, and I know Matt (Scootermm) uses it for some of his work so it is probably not quite as bad...unless you have spent a couple of hours in the darkroom coating, exposing and porcessing prints to end up with fuzzy prints which will drive you to swearing in a heartbeat. Never have found when it will print well and when it does not...and not patient enought to walk through the process and figure out the problem.

Click to expand...

One of the problems with using Cranes Cover is determining the "good" side from the "bad" side. To do this I have to loupe the paper and inspect the paper grain under magnification. The side with longer rougher fiber is the "bad" side. Cover is okay to work with up to about 11x14 , larger than that and it rips very easily once wet and don't use any heavier than the 90# as it will delaminate and bubble once soaked for a while.

Cranes Cover works pretty well with VDB and ziatype, IME, but as Sandy has pointed out can be more difficult to clear. Not a great paper but an adequate one at an affordable price. Magic brush coating pretty much eliminates the fuzzies.

Cranes Kid Finish, IMO, isn't that bad of a paper except for the water mark.
For small prints it can work quite well. I've attempted to obtain samples of the heavier weight versions of this paper but to no avail. The minimum order from Crane dealers is 500 parent sized sheets.

Cranes stationary makes a good cheap paper for Agyrotype, or so I've been told by Darryl Baird.

I don't regard Cot 320 and Arches Platine exactly the same, I prefer the Platine for the reasons Kerik pointed out.

I have two small sample sheets of Buxton, I'm afaird to test it because if I like it I won't be able to afford it.


Finally I've pretty much settled on 3 papers for printing, Fabriano Artistico Extra White, Rives BFK, and Arches Platine. The FAEW and BFK both require an acid presoak for paltinum palladium work. I do like Stonehenge white for VDB and I've got a pile of the Stonehenge Natural White waiting to be tested.

I've still not make up my mind on ClearPrint and Bienfang and at one time it was rumored that Koday Dye Transfer paper works really well for plt/pld.

So many papers, to little time.

Now that you mentioned it, Gerhard, do believe that it was after a long wash that I experienced the bleeding problem with Platinotype....Good Catch.

Also, it seems that the more I work with each paper, the more I learn the little quirks they have. As noted in earlier in this thread, drop count changed quite a bit between Platine and Platinotype...need to get some PVA to try on the Platinotype.

Don, agree with your assesment of Rising Stonehenge for VDB, Jeremy gave me some to try and I did really like it, had just forgotten about it. Good info on the other papers, the BFK and FAEW are a little less $ than Platine (but the way to go with it is to order the BIG sheets and cut them down - still $109 for 25 sheets of 22x30 approx).

Great Thread, and as Don stated....the magic brush is a must.

gbock said:

...otherwise fine prints were ruined by weird fuzzy blotches that look like oversized fingerprints but actually seem to be the paper fibers breaking up (or down). I blame it on excessive washing--

Click to expand...

Aha... I tend to keep a complete cycle going where prints don't spend a lot of wet time. I noticed early on that if it was too saturated for too long that the coating became very unstable. The slightest touch would blemish the surface and cause one of the "fuzzy spots" of which you speak. Since going to a limited wet time, I have not had the problem.

I also have to agree with Don's good side/ bad side. I found early on that one side printed much better than the other.

It seems this all breaks down to personal experience, size and type of print etc. I am hoping I will be blown away by the others. For now, this is working fine for me. It seems I have been printing night and day for weeks now! Too many variables, but I think I am finally settling in on what works for me and my style of shooting.

Thanks everyone for all the help!

Bill

"Great Thread, and as Don stated....the magic brush is a must." - Agreed... the brush makes a world of difference.

I didn't know about the good side vs. bad side. With Platine, it's very obvious which side is the right side; with Platinotype, I just assumed it didn't matter because they're both quite smooth. Thanks for pointing that out, Don and Bill.

Gerhard

I have experienced "fuzzy spots" a few times. I found, in my case, they were caused by drying the paper on horizontal screens. As the paper dried, certain areas of the paper would curl, or lift off the screen, and water pooled in the flat areas that were not as dry, creating a fuzzy spot.

I solved this by placing the wet print, straight out of the wash, on a screen set at a forty-five degree angle. After 10 or 15 minutes, the excess water drains off and the print can then go onto the final drying rack. My final drying rack is set at a slight angle, so excess water drains to one edge. One word of caution, if I leave a print on the 45 degree screen too long, eventually it will slide down to the floor, possibly damaging the print.

donbga said:

One of the problems with using Cranes Cover is determining the "good" side from the "bad" side. To do this I have to loupe the paper and inspect the paper grain under magnification. The side with longer rougher fiber is the "bad" side. Cover is okay to work with up to about 11x14 , larger than that and it rips very easily once wet and don't use any heavier than the 90# as it will delaminate and bubble once soaked for a while.

Cranes Cover works pretty well with VDB and ziatype, IME, but as Sandy has pointed out can be more difficult to clear. Not a great paper but an adequate one at an affordable price. Magic brush coating pretty much eliminates the fuzzies.

Click to expand...

Well, I am confused. I have some paper that is clearly labeled Cranes Platinotype (from B&S ) , and some other from Formulary that is labeled as Cranes Cover 90 lb Wove. Are these in fact the same paper?

Sandy

sanking said:

Well, I am confused. I have some paper that is clearly labeled Cranes Platinotype (from B&S ) , and some other from Formulary that is labeled as Cranes Cover 90 lb Wove. Are these in fact the same paper?

Sandy

Click to expand...

To be honest I'm confused about that as well. Carl Weese says they are the same, so I just took his word for it. His comment lies somewhere in the Alt Process Mail list archives. I may have it in my own archive. Never the less that's been my impression but I've never purchased Platinotype (aka. cageotype in Placerville, CA) so I can't say from first hand experience.

sanking said:

Well, I am confused. I have some paper that is clearly labeled Cranes Platinotype (from B&S ) , and some other from Formulary that is labeled as Cranes Cover 90 lb Wove. Are these in fact the same paper?

Click to expand...

In all likelihood, yes. I've seen that same paper called:

Cranes Platinotype
Cranes Artificial Parchment
Cranes Business Card Stock
Cranes Cover Stock
Cranes Crest Natural White Wove

Do they look the same and print the same? One of the other reasons I don't like this paper (other than poor wet strength, fuzziness, etc) is that to me, it just lacks character. Part of the enjoyment of hand made photographs are their tactile nature. A nice paper like Platine or BFK just feels good in your hands.

I've used Cranes as well as the other papers mentioned in workshops for many years. The vast majority of students gravitate to Platine or COT or BFK after trying Cranes.

I know that Dick Arentz prints on this paper, but it's my understanding that for his own work he's using a very old stash that was made many years ago. I don't think today's "Platinotype" is the same animal.

donbga said:

(aka. cageotype in Placerville, CA) so I can't say from first hand experience.

Click to expand...

Don,

That's Birdcageotype.

Twin Rocker Deckle Edge

Tri Tran said:

Hi
When I develop Platinum/Paladium prints, my prints tend to have smeared water marks “bleeding” from the edge of my prints(8x10) toward the outside when it dry. I used B/S platinotype paper.
Has anyone seen this or run into this problem? What causes the problem and how do you get rid of it? Thanks for your help.Tri Tran

Click to expand...

Sorry about jacking your thread Tri, but since we are discussing papers does anyone have any experience with Twin Rocker Deckle Edge? I have a small stash of this paper but haven't ever tried it since it's texture seems to call for a "special" image. Aside from that though how does it print with plt/pld?

Hi Don,
No worries. I enjoyed your discussions. Nothing happened yet. I’m still waiting for the paper to be shipped. Thanks for checking.

Don,
I treat it like Fabriano Extra White. 5 minute oxalic acid soak pre-treatment, and dry. Coat, dry w/ hairdryer after a minute of rest post-coating. Let it rehumidify to ambient R.H. and then print. Seems slower than Platine and some images seem to benefit from double coating.

Clay

donbga said:

Sorry about jacking your thread Tri, but since we are discussing papers does anyone have any experience with Twin Rocker Deckle Edge? I have a small stash of this paper but haven't ever tried it since it's texture seems to call for a "special" image. Aside from that though how does it print with plt/pld?

Click to expand...

clay said:

Don,
I treat it like Fabriano Extra White. 5 minute oxalic acid soak pre-treatment, and dry. Coat, dry w/ hairdryer after a minute of rest post-coating. Let it rehumidify to ambient R.H. and then print. Seems slower than Platine and some images seem to benefit from double coating.

Clay

Click to expand...

Thanks Clay, now to find the right image for that paper!

palladium toner also bleeding

I'm a little late joining in on this thread but I'm sure glad I found it!
I have been having the same bleeding problem from using palladium toner with VDB prints, but had no idea what was happening.
Initially, I thought it might be light leaks from the edge of the negative creating small stained areas at the outer edges of the image.
I was using Stonehenge paper but have switched to Platine and the problem has basically dissapeared.
thanks
david