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PIRA Darkroom Buddy... any thoughts?

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Derek Lofgreen

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I am looking at getting something to make developing my film a little less boring... I have always just used my Paterson tank for B&W, C41 and E6 but it's the standing around watching my timer and hand agitation gets really old fast.

I have seen the AGO processor. It looks fine. A little more than I want to spend for an agitator but it's an option. Then I found the Pira Darkroom Buddy. https://darkroomhelper.pira.mx/

It looks interesting. Temp control and a simple agitation solution. The price seems pretty reasonable too.

Anyone have one of these or know anything about it? Looks like it's an individual that developed and produces it on his own.

D.
 

koraks

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The trick with the magnets is nifty. I do expect that under adverse conditions, there will be problems with uneven development esp. on 120 roll film due to the agitation pattern.
 

loccdor

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Seems like a good deal if it works. I'm concerned about the seal on the tank lid - one big leak and you could end up having to mix a new batch of chemicals.
 

koraks

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I'm concerned about the seal on the tank lid
The seal on modern Paterson tanks is pretty good in my experience. At least back when I still had one...
Btw, I understand from the demo video that you can also use the machine in upright position, in which case this wouldn't be a concern. However, for evenness of development (and chemistry economy), horizontal position would be more interesting.
 

grahamp

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Since the unit runs wet, there should be some lubrication between the center core and the base. My initial thought was that there would be wear at this point, as the tank was not designed for continuous rotation.

Speed control in the horizontal orientation would be useful, and maybe an intermittent mode when upright. But it looks like it will do what it is intended to do at first glance.
 

DREW WILEY

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Looks like excessive agitation. And there are easier way to get 3-way out of rotary at the same time; but I don't want to discourage entrepreneurial new innovations, so will leave it at that.
 

koraks

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And there are easier way to get 3-way out of rotary at the same time; but I don't want to discourage entrepreneurial new innovations, so will leave it at that.
Surely, if there were easier ways, then this product would serve no purpose and the guy behind it will soon find out if he doesn't sell any and has to give up the venture.

However, even though I don't intend to buy it, if I were in the market for something to help make my film processing easier, I'd certainly consider this option. I think it's neat and I can't think of other solutions that are cost effective/affordable, avoid a big & clunky water jacket but still offer some form of temperature control, use bog-standard Paterson tanks, available new on the market, compact, etc. It's a pretty good proposition, really.

In all honesty, I think 'discouraging entrepeneurial new innovations' is pretty much what your remark boils down to! Well, 'disparaging' for sure.
 

DREW WILEY

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Not disparaging at all. Realistic. If it fill a niche, it has a chance. But the niche is probably pretty small, and basing it on the Paterson tank system isn't exactly going to appeal to someone expecting something of high quality and reliability. But one could always keep on hand spare tanks if that is their worry.

And why does an effective water jacket have to be big, clunky, or expensive? That's about one of the easiest things to design I can think of, if one wants to think "outside the box" of surround trays.
 

koraks

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one of the easiest things to design
But this is ready-to-go, no need to design or build anything. You can order it for like $250, unpack it and have a go with it. That's what most people do you know. They order something, then use it. Simple. To pay for it, they work a job. It's how most of the economy is wired. Weird, I know. Still works that way.

I think it's smart to tap into an existing and popular ecosystem by using the Paterson tanks as a starting point. The guy who made the Mod54 did the same. He sold plenty of those. There's some other machines that also work with the Paterson tanks. They seem to be selling OK given that they have been on the market now for a few years and we occasionally see people report on using them.

Realistic would be acknowledging that there are quite some people looking for something like this. It's a question we see here on Photrio from time to time, and we only get to see the tip of the iceberg. The fact that Chinese ventures have also jumped to the occasion suggests that there actually is an occasion. This also reflects on the thread going now by @NortheastPhotographic who's looking to expand his capacity significantly to keep up with growing demand. Some of the people shooting film choose to send their film off, some process it at home. Out of the home-processors, some will be in the market for a machine. These machines appeal to people. Many of us here on Photrio have something like a Jobo CPx and I rarely hear anyone say they're just going to scrap it because it doesn't see any use. Fact of the matter is that many people find a new CPP3 too expensive, so they're open for a (much) cheaper option. This one here is one of those options.

I think you're not being realistic; I think you're being overly pessimistic. He doesn't have to sell 100k units to break even on this. If he sells a couple of hundred, he's probably content. And that's definitely a realistic number.
 

DREW WILEY

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Well, agreed - not much risk for a mere $250. My own way is to build something bullet-proof. I might start with a film dev drum modeled after a stainless steel Thermos bottle - the whole point is to keep the liquid inside the drum at constant temperature, which doesn't necessarily need an exterior water jacket at all. For my big print drums I went with a manufacturer offering premium drums of exceptional temp retention due to their specific thermoplastic, namely Noryl, which is expensive. They also made the best thermoregulators back in the day. Long out of business by now; retired.

I won't go into my own agitation tweak; but it's about as bombproof and reliable as it gets, but also ridiculously simple and inexpensive to add! Otherwise let's just say that a serious gearmotor is involved in the main device, lifetime duty rated; makes anything Jobo look like a toy - but the whole rig (minus drums) actually cost less than today's Jobos! - though about double the price of a basic Jobo rotary system back then.

I don't know what more highly automated drum units like the Prinz system cost at the time; I was recently offered one of those for free, but don't have the need or space, much less the patience for electronics repairs if something goes bad in that category.

For ordinary roll film processing I'm perfectly content with ordinary Jobo hand inversion drums and a basic tray water bath. It's relaxing. But that approach wouldn't be acceptable for a small commercial lab needing to process lots of film every day.

Pessimistic I'm not. It's just that every time one of these innovations comes up, they either can or can't afford to patent it, and even if they do, someone might come right behind them and sell a pirated knockoff version anyway. I've seen that happen many times, even to innovative friends of mine. It takes a lot of money just to defend a patent. The only real solution is to make something so well built and efficient that it gains brand recognition traction right up front. Thankfully, with this kind of gear, Walmart and the other big box corporate pirates won't being taking any interest in it. There's still no darkroom section hiding somewhere in their endless aisles.

When you're talking actual 100K and upward equipment, it's common to make zero profit on the equipment itself, but a bundle on the shipping, setup charges, and ongoing maintenance contracts
(plus often travel expenses too). Just like buying a car - the dealer makes very little on the vehicle itself, but gouges the hell out of everybody on scheduled maintenance plus repair parts.

Then there's my way, knowing someone who did all that, spent an average of 2 million dollars every few years constantly upgrading his lab to the latest and greatest, and then eventually said to hell with it, converted over to digital, and offered me anything I wanted of his old chemical and enlarging gear for free. I really didn't need much more than I already had; but still, there was a little bit of space left for something really nice.
 
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Derek Lofgreen

Derek Lofgreen

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I am looking at this because it is affordable, simple and does what I want. I don't really understand why anyone would spend the money for a jobo unless you are shooting a huge volume of film or maybe large format. I am not doing either. I shoot a roll of 35mm or 120 a week. BW and C41, but there is no way I can justify the cost of a jobo, let alone have the patience to rig it up and faf about with all those hoses etc. Just too much trouble. I just want to find something that I can throw the chems in, let it spin, and pull the film. Honestly, hand inversions have worked fine for me for the last 20 years, it's just so boring. Pulling the film from the can is really fun, printing and scanning is fun too. It's just the timer watching and the inversions that drive me nuts.

I think I will pull the trigger on this machine and see how it goes. I think there is enough opportunity for it to meet my needs that I may end up really liking it.

Thanks for all the input.

D.
 

pentaxuser

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Drew, any idea what would be the price of your machine in#13? How much bigger, if any bigger, it would be and what are the "defects" you can be sure that the PIRA will suffer from in terms of what will definitely appear on the processed films?

I ask because unless the PIRA machine will definitely result in flaws then isn't it a question of cost v benefits Your machine has to better the PIRA on such counts to be a saleable machine in competiton with the one demonstrated, doesn't it and at $250( not a mere amount for many) this machine may be difficult to beat.



Thanks
 

DREW WILEY

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Don't get me talking about machinery, Pentax ... I could go on for days or weeks. Basic affordable devices can be excellent, and sometimes expensive fancy ones a headache. What counts is design and quality of the materials. I've been given samples and prototypes of otherwise excellent designs which nonetheless failed prematurely and miserably due to cost cuts in materials, or shortcuts in manufacture.

The only thing to do in this specific case is for someone to play the guinea pig and report back. I've been my own darkroom guinea pig numerous times, and have lost a fair amount of money that way; but sometimes it's the only way to know for sure. But it still takes a period of time to appraise the long-term reliability of a product, along with a sufficient number of sales to determine its statistical reliability.

I'm not in the business of making darkroom machines for other people, just for myself. I don't have to worry about filing patents, defending them, or any marketing expenses. I was involved in all of that kind of stuff in relation to my former day job, spending someone else's money, and determining the worthiness of one piece of equipment after another by means of constant personal interactions with manufacturers themselves. I was generally among the first to receive samples for testing - and test we did ! - both in real-world applications and by downright tearing things apart to see how they were built.

I hope the little device in question on this thread does work out well for some.
 

pentaxuser

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Thanks for the reply. My question was simply to find out if you had thought through the costing of your idea and the likely price of realising your idea onto the market and then comparing that "bang for buck" to the known "bang for buck" of the machine on sale

pentaxuser
 

DREW WILEY

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Well, my own device is for up to 30X40 inch capacity print drums. It can handle small drums as well,
but in terms of realistic pricing, it's in an completely different category than small amateur devices.
 

MattKing

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FWIW, this item looks like a great replacement for the much more manual operation Beseler or Unicolor rotary reversing motor base that I use Paterson Super System IV tanks with.
The temperature related functions would help me consider C41 as well.
And as it is made in Mexico, it probably is easy to bring it into Canada.
 
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