Pink Acros

bvy · Apr 5, 2015

I just developed a roll of Neopan 100 Acros 120 in HC-110 (B) for 5.5 min. at 68F -- vinegar stop (1+4) for 1 min. and fix for 3.5 min. I rinsed for 3 min. and soaked it in PhotoFlo for a couple minutes. The entire roll, except for the last three frames, has a pink/magenta cast in the clear areas. My initial thought was insufficient fixing, but my fixer is fairly fresh and, even so, it would seem that the entire roll would be affected if that was the case. Any ideas? This is my first time using HC-110 on roll film. Thanks.

ETA: Everything else on the roll looks good. Even development, good density...

pdeeh · Apr 5, 2015

Wash wash and more wash.

I have sneaking suspicion that a longer fix helps Acros lose that cast. I'm never quite sure if Acros is a tabular grain film and requires a longer fix anyway?

anyway ... mine only ever clears of the cast if I give it about 4x more washing than any of the other films I use.

MattKing · Apr 5, 2015

Three minutes is a very short wash - even if you are using a wash aid.

Dan Daniel · Apr 5, 2015

You need more washing. I do a soaking wash. FIll the tank, let it sit for a few minutes, agitate, toss. Refill, etc. When I do this I get pink in the wash water for at least three rounds.

What I've found interesting is that my fix will come out of the film tank pink, but it loses this color over time. When I used a hypo clearing agent, it would also come out pink but that color stayed in the clearing agent. Strange....

Gerald C Koch · Apr 5, 2015

The magenta color is from a dye used in some films. It is very tenacious and requires the use of a sulfite based wash aid and extra wash time. The sulfite is useful for facilitating the removal of the dye. The dye will not harm the film but could be problematic if you use VC papers.

bvy · Apr 5, 2015

Typically I've used Ilford's 5+10+20 wash routine which takes about three minutes. Never had this problem before. I'll re-wash and see what happens...

pentaxuser · Apr 5, 2015

bvy said:
Typically I've used Ilford's 5+10+20 wash routine which takes about three minutes. Never had this problem before. I'll re-wash and see what happens...

Me neither. I have never used HC110 but use Xtol instead with the Ilford wash routine and have never seen any magenta colour.

pentaxuser

bvy · Apr 5, 2015

I re-washed -- five more minutes with hose in Paterson tank, dumping every minute. That seems to have done it. Thanks all...

Richard S. (rich815) · Apr 5, 2015

Forget the vinegar stop. Plain water works just fine. I fix my Acros for 6 min in TF-4 and wash for at least 5 minutes often more.

ritternathan · Apr 5, 2015

I've processed hundreds of rolls of 120 Acros and I only had a problem in the beginning when I was using the old standard Kodak fixer powder. When I switched to Ammonium Thiosulfate based fixer (TF-3/4/5, Rapid Neutral) and fixed for 3-5 min I have never had a problem with the pink dye coming out, though I do usually increase the standard Ilford washing method of three baths to four because the pink keeps coming out.

RattyMouse · Apr 6, 2015

ritternathan said:
I've processed hundreds of rolls of 120 Acros and I only had a problem in the beginning when I was using the old standard Kodak fixer powder. When I switched to Ammonium Thiosulfate based fixer (TF-3/4/5, Rapid Neutral) and fixed for 3-5 min I have never had a problem with the pink dye coming out, though I do usually increase the standard Ilford washing method of three baths to four because the pink keeps coming out.

Yes, the Ilford wash method is much too short for Acros film. The pink dye is very visible in the wash water after completion. I always wash Acros at least 6 washing of 20 inversions. The pink color fades in the final washes with the final wash being as clear as water.

The OP's 3 minutes of washing is dramatically too short.

NB23 · Apr 6, 2015

APUGuser19 said:
I've always given a pre-soak in water brought to temp, for the expressed purpose to condition the tank metal to the developer temperature. With that, a side benefit was the dark water that ends up being poured out. Back in the day of Plus-X, TX, FX, and VP, the film had a purple color. Nowadays, it's pink. Either problem was never a complaint of mine with this process. City water or country water from a well either one, had no bearing. Counting the advantages 1) dissolving the AH backing, 2) Conditioning the tank and reel to temperature, 3) conditioning away preliminary surface tension (air bells), it's hard for me to understand these pink complaints as they pop up. To me, pink, purple, gray--all went down the drain before I even poured in the developer. All I see is the anti-piping (lateral transmission) base tinting.
I've heard the official manufacturer's words on this, saying "not nesessary", or whatever. I don't recall seeing anywhere where they said to not pre-rinse. If they did, I'd like to see their list of reasons why not.

Please explain to me how can one single pre-soak totally get rid of the color while 5 minutes in the developer plus a minute in the Stop plus 4 minutes in the fixer plus 2 minutes in hypo clear plus 5 minutes in running water can't?

That's pretty amazing. I don't believe in it but you maybe can explain and convince me?

I avoid pre-soaking at all cost as it gave me uneven development in the past. There is indeed that infusion-diffusion water versus developer process that caused me problems.

Ghostman · Apr 6, 2015

I wash until the pink goes away, usually for 10-15 minutes. Every few minutes I lift the spindle rod and pump it up and down in the water and replace the water until I see there is no more pink hue. I also use a two bath fix of about 3 minutes each. My Acros comes out very clean.

I have two ways of developing Acros, 1. stand developed in Rodinal or 2. normal development in DD-X.

Xmas · Apr 6, 2015

The pink dye will fade.
If you don't fix and wash properly the negatives won't last the silver compounds will revert to silver.
The tabular grain films take longer and exhaust the fix more rapidly.
I can tell cause I fix by inspection.
I always use hypo clear as well.
You can develop film in coffee but you need to fix and wash properly.

A pre wash will help remove pink dye but it is a waste of time the pink dye will fade anyway and won't turn into silver like unwashed hypo.

You need to avoid with non prehardened film.

Axle · Apr 6, 2015

For Acros, I use Kodak Rapid Fixer for minimum 5 minutes. Hypoclear for 2 minutes. Washing is the Ilford Method: 5, 10, 20, then introduce photoflo, then 40 inversions and dump. Never seen pink cast to the negs.

pentaxuser · Apr 6, 2015

I can see the Ilford 5,10,20 method being particularly welcomed by the Governor of California if a recent report on the BBC is to be believed about water shortage.

We are back to the old debate of:" Can the Ilford method be trusted to do its job." My feeling is it can, based on the Roger Hicks sentiment: Why would Ilford or any other film company publish a method that it knew didn't work?

Having said that I usually do an extra couple of wash inversions and dumps "just for luck" and because it "comforts" me but that's my problem and not Ilford's

pentaxuser.

pentaxuser · Apr 6, 2015

Michael R 1974 said:
If you are concerned with water usage but find Ilford's wash sequence to short to get all the residual dye out, all you need are a few soaks for several minutes in standing water at the end the wash cycle.

I am sure this is right, Michael. A couple of longish soaks will work wonders in terms of dye removal. Fortunately we are awash with water in the U.K. Last year we had so much of the stuff that Cornwall's coast began just beyond Taunton, two counties and about 150 miles further up

It was just that profligacy with water may need to be a thing of the past in areas of the U.S. and as far as washing film to the correct standards is concerned then we need to look at what the film-makers say.

Last time I saw Simon Galley he didn't look close enough to old age and retirement to risk a "here today and gone tomorrow" approach to his films' longevity after they are processed

pentaxuser

Simonh82 · Apr 7, 2015

If anyone has concerns about the effectiveness of Ilford's wash sequence you should see the comprehensive testing done in the sticky thread at the top of this forum. (there was a url link here which no longer exists).

Like many people it seems, I extend this sequence slightly just for peace of mind and do one initial fill and dump, followed by fill and dumps with 10, 20, 30 and 5 inversions. I've never used HCA on film and find this works well for all of the films i've used.

Simon R Galley · Apr 7, 2015

I have no concerns... whatsoever, its what we do.

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

Xmas · Apr 7, 2015

Simonh82 said:
If anyone has concerns about the effectiveness of Ilford's wash sequence you should see the comprehensive testing done in the sticky thread at the top of this forum. (there was a url link here which no longer exists).

Like many people it seems, I extend this sequence slightly just for peace of mind and do one initial fill and dump, followed by fill and dumps with 10, 20, 30 and 5 inversions. I've never used HCA on film and find this works well for all of the films i've used.

5, 10, 20 & 30 would be more effacious... You need to be a major in physical chemistry?

pentaxuser · Apr 7, 2015

Xmas said:
5, 10, 20 & 30 would be more effacious... You need to be a major in physical chemistry?

Can you expand on this, please? I had always thought that if the 5,10,20 Ilford regime produces archival negs and in the test thread linked to it certainly seems to, then more inversions may give "comfort" to those of us and I am one of them who like to take "a just in case approach" but will not in fact be more efficacious.

However I may have misunderstood what you are saying

pentaxuser

Xmas · Apr 7, 2015

I can explain

10, 20, 30, 5

Is less effective than

5, 10, 20, 30

That was suggested earlier neither is Ilfords or my recommendation...

The process is a slow diffusion that 'slows' down as the concentration of the silver thiosulphate reduces and you need it down to zero.

I just prologue a HCA bath per kodaks instructions followed by Ilfords.
Note the 'quotes'

pentaxuser · Apr 7, 2015

Xmas, thank you.

pentaxuser

Simonh82 · Apr 8, 2015

Xmas said:
I can explain

10, 20, 30, 5

Is less effective than

5, 10, 20, 30

That was suggested earlier neither is Ilfords or my recommendation...

Xmas, my suggestion is actually 1,10, 20, 30, 5. The reason for the odd order is that the 5 inversions on the end are my comfort blanket and were added on to what I already knew was probably a perfectly acceptable wash sequence. The way it works (in my mind at least) is that the first initial fill and dump will get rid of any of the residual fixer clinging to the film or tank. the 10, 20, 30 inversions work to actually wash the film and the final 5 inversions are for peace of mind.

I suspect I'm not the only one who has slightly illogical darkroom habits, which come from personal foibles.

RalphLambrecht · Apr 8, 2015

pdeeh said:
Wash wash and more wash.

I have sneaking suspicion that a longer fix helps Acros lose that cast. I'm never quite sure if Acros is a tabular grain film and requires a longer fix anyway?

anyway ... mine only ever clears of the cast if I give it about 4x more washing than any of the other films I use.

the pink cast is a residual from the antihalation layer.the good news is it'swater soluable.So,any extended wet time will clear more of it.you have options:longer fix,additional hypocler or a longer wash will do it.not that it causes any harm though.some people claim that exposure to UV also clears it but,I could never make that work.

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