Pigment inks on 1430

I notice this may have already been posted but was deleted, but are you able to use the Ultrachrome Hi-gloss inks in the newer 1430?

I say this as I have sets of ink from the r1800 which broke. I'm thinking somewhere along the lines of extracting the ink from the cartridges and using something like the Easyfill system on a new 1430
https://system.netsuite.com/c.362672/site/what-is-easyfill.html

The problem is which inks should I use to replace the LK and LM in the 1430?


Regards

calebarchie said:

I notice this may have already been posted but was deleted, but are you able to use the Ultrachrome Hi-gloss inks in the newer 1430?

I say this as I have sets of ink from the r1800 which broke. I'm thinking somewhere along the lines of extracting the ink from the cartridges and using something like the Easyfill system on a new 1430
https://system.netsuite.com/c.362672/site/what-is-easyfill.html

The problem is which inks should I use to replace the LK and LM in the 1430?


Regards

Click to expand...

The R1800 has 8 inks, the 1430 only 6, but it can make fine negatives. Manually emptying R1800 cartridges to feed a 1430 would be hugely expensive and you wouldn't be able to use the Epson driver. Better strategies:
- dedicate the 1430 to digital negatives and replace the Durabrite ink with Piezography (you will need to
profile this yourself)
- find a used R1800 (probably cheaper than getting your repaired)

pschwart said:

The R1800 has 8 inks, the 1430 only 6, but it can make fine negatives. Manually emptying R1800 cartridges to feed a 1430 would be hugely expensive and you wouldn't be able to use the Epson driver. Better strategies:
- dedicate the 1430 to digital negatives and replace the Durabrite ink with Piezography (you will need to
profile this yourself)
- find a used R1800 (probably cheaper than getting your repaired)

Click to expand...

Hi Philip, I have considered using the piezography inks but find the costs too prohibitive and can really only afford a new printer for now. That is why I'm thinking to use my leftover ultrachrome ink in the 1430, I don't see how this can be too expensive as I already have the inks which can be extracted with a simple syringe. Then once this supply is eventually exhausted I may be able to afford the piezography inks for the system.

Planning to use QTR only so that disregards the problem of drivers no? Unfortunately I'm in Australia and coming across an actual working used r1800 is very rare.



EDIT: I have come across a dedicated digi negative printing place in AUS that use a dedicated set of ink and film
http://www.adcoeng.com.au/#!jet-film--ink/c1hc0
It is cheaper than both piezography and OEM inks, perhaps this is the better way to go for now? Although there is limited information on using this process in regards to curves etc which I am inquiring about now.

It will be very expensive after that first set of cartridges, which will get used up during the profiling exercise.
QTR profiling is not trivial -- if this is your first time, you probably won't have much ink left before
the cartridges are empty, and then you will just have to start over with another ink set. Unfortunately the startup costs for using Piezography are high, but bottled ink refills are significantly less expensive than Epson cartridges. At one point Jon Cone offered trial sets in 1400 cartridges, but that still cost more than the printer itself. My 1400 makes fine negatives, but since the Claria ink is not a good UV blocker, it's not a great choice for someone just getting started with digital negatives. Some (not all!) Ultrachrome printers have inks that work well for digital negatives; maybe you can find one used.
Making digital negatives is an expensive proposition -- don't forget the cost of the OHP which can run you about $1.00 USD per 8-1/2x11.
Personally, I need to work in real time. I want to print my own negatives, make a print, evaluate the results, and iterate until I am satisfied. It was a common practice to use a service bureau for imagesetter negatives before inkjets were up to this task. You can always try a service bureau and see how that works for you.

I have almost 2 full sets of r1800 inks (missing blue and C) plus the ones already in the printer, so it may be worth a shot. Although I do understand that in the long term, such a process is not very cost effective.

While on this topic how many actual prints would I be able to get out of the epson cartridge (once I get profiling down set)? I am unsure of the capacity.
Yes I am just starting out that said I will only be doing Silver gelatin at first getting comfortable with it and then moving on to other alternate processes. Perhaps start of with the claria inksets and then move on? (I believe there are profiles already via Clay Hamon to be fine tuned)

I want to go with the 1430 as it has the same head (DX5) as the r1800 using 1.5 picloitres yet is still current and reliable. If the chances of getting a used r1800 weren't so poor it would surely be the route to go. Other used epson (K3) are 3 picolitres and are only pro models which are simply too big to actually use in my circumstances.

Sorry, I didn't know you were planning on making silver gelatin prints. I only evaluated the Claria ink for UV blocking, and you don't want that for silver gelatin. Maybe someone on the forum has tried negs for silver with that printer, or you can always give it a try yourself. Cone does make some inexpensive color pigment and dye inks that can be used in the 14xx. They were weak UV blockers, but I don't know how they would perform for silver printing.

I think it likely you will use up all your 1800 ink before you arrive at a reliable workflow, but as you said, the ink is a sunk cost, and your time is your own. I think Clay's profiles are for platinum/palladium, so these won't help you. If you decide to go with pt/pd, you will have some expensive startup cost there, too.

The 1.5 picoliter droplets on the 14xx and 1800 can produce very fine digital negatives.

calebarchie said:

I have almost 2 full sets of r1800 inks (missing blue and C) plus the ones already in the printer, so it may be worth a shot. Although I do understand that in the long term, such a process is not very cost effective.

While on this topic how many actual prints would I be able to get out of the epson cartridge (once I get profiling down set)? I am unsure of the capacity.
Yes I am just starting out that said I will only be doing Silver gelatin at first getting comfortable with it and then moving on to other alternate processes. Perhaps start of with the claria inksets and then move on? (I believe there are profiles already via Clay Hamon to be fine tuned)

I want to go with the 1430 as it has the same head (DX5) as the r1800 using 1.5 picloitres yet is still current and reliable. If the chances of getting a used r1800 weren't so poor it would surely be the route to go. Other used epson (K3) are 3 picolitres and are only pro models which are simply too big to actually use in my circumstances.

Click to expand...

Thanks Philip, I'm unsure on how I am going to progress still getting my head around things.

Currently inquiring about the Jet black Inks here
Adco International | Large Format Printing Solutions
Adco International | Large Format Printing Solutions

In slight confusion here, in theory is the colour ink irrelevant for digital negatives if the black is dense enough for UV regardless? (If not using colours to tone/contrast filtering) Will it affect the tonality etc?
Then perhaps I can just replace the black ink with jet black one.

calebarchie said:

Thanks Philip, I'm unsure on how I am going to progress still getting my head around things.

Currently inquiring about the Jet black Inks here
Adco International | Large Format Printing Solutions
Adco International | Large Format Printing Solutions

In slight confusion here, in theory is the colour ink irrelevant for digital negatives if the black is dense enough for UV regardless? (If not using colours to tone/contrast filtering) Will it affect the tonality etc?
Then perhaps I can just replace the black ink with jet black one.

Click to expand...

You should listen to Philip and get your own setup. Use the Cone inks. None of the printers referenced above should be used for any kind of high volume negative making. The 1430 is fine, but its a plastic, small printer. It's not the same as a printer with more metal, like a 4x00, 7x00 or 9x00.

The jet-black ink is for line drawings and halftones. Its not for making negatives to print with. You need multiple blacks, not a single black, to do these things.

There is a way to do this that is easy, and another path that leads to endless frustration...

Lenny

Lenny makes an excellent point. None of the Epson desktop printers is designed for production use. They are mostly plastic, made you-know-where, and sufficient for occasional use. I can guarantee you will experience problems with head clogs, star wheel tracks, and paper misfeeds. Head cleaning, especially to clear clogs, will cost you plenty. Unless you add an outboard waste tank, a desktop printer will cease printing after its waste counter reaches its preset limit. I can make negatives on 3 different Epsons so I can keep working if (when) one decides to take a vacation. Some of this applies even to my 3800. It's considered a "Professional Imaging" printer by Epson, but the build quality is not even as good as the R1800 or 1400. It's best feature is 80ml cartridges, but feeding watercolor paper, or anything through the front slot, can require special attention. PK and MK are not active at the same time so you have to switch which takes time and wastes ink. Epson actually advertises this auto-switching as a feature.
I consider the Epson to be toys capable of fine printing. This is probably true of most small inkjets. I would pay plenty for a production quality 13" desktop printer, but I doubt anyone will make one.
We make do, it is what it is. End of rant.

calebarchie said:

Thanks Philip, I'm unsure on how I am going to progress still getting my head around things.

Currently inquiring about the Jet black Inks here
Adco International | Large Format Printing Solutions
Adco International | Large Format Printing Solutions

In slight confusion here, in theory is the colour ink irrelevant for digital negatives if the black is dense enough for UV regardless? (If not using colours to tone/contrast filtering) Will it affect the tonality etc?
Then perhaps I can just replace the black ink with jet black one.

Click to expand...

The primary function of most strategies for making digital negatives is to increase density so it will be possible to achieve paper white in a print. If a particular printer can provide the required density using OEM inks and driver, then all that is needed is a good correction curve to linearize print tones. The R1800 can make high-density composite b&w negatives (printed using all inks), but it is the only printer I have encountered that can do this. Other printers will need to make colorized negatives to increase the spectral density, and/or replace the native inks and drive the printer with a RIP like QTR and a custom profile.
Since you need smooth tonalities and high resolution in addition to density, you need to lay down sufficient ink using multiple channels. Colorized and monochrome negatives can both work. I use native inks in the R1800, and Piezography in the 1400. Using a monochrome ink set means dedicating the printer -- you can swap ink sets in and out, but in my experience this just leads to grief.

A professional grade epson may be nice but I don't even have the space to house one unfortunately. This won't be high volume but occasional prints.
I have dealt with waste ink tanks and waste counter limits in the r1800, extracted the inks and reset the counter. The starwheels could be removed on the r1800 too.

The company got back to me and yes the jet black is not usually used for continuous tone output but they say it still should function like any other ink, they also supply compatible CMY inks to use with their special film. Whether using continuous tone will affect adhesion with their film I am unsure of.
So Philip from my understanding, using multiple channels for a composite including k yields higher resolution + tonality opposed just using the single black channel?
That said perhaps I can get a test done with this companies set up with colours + jet black before jumping into the piezography inks?

calebarchie said:

A professional grade epson may be nice but I don't even have the space to house one unfortunately. This won't be high volume but occasional prints.
I have dealt with waste ink tanks and waste counter limits in the r1800, extracted the inks and reset the counter. The starwheels could be removed on the r1800 too.

The company got back to me and yes the jet black is not usually used for continuous tone output but they say it still should function like any other ink, they also supply compatible CMY inks to use with their special film. Whether using continuous tone will affect adhesion with their film I am unsure of.
So Philip from my understanding, using multiple channels for a composite including k yields higher resolution + tonality opposed just using the single black channel?
That said perhaps I can get a test done with this companies set up with colours + jet black before jumping into the piezography inks?

Click to expand...

Using only K (a single black channel) to print negatives can make nice but grainy prints, but it's a non-starter for negatives. Continuous tone will be simulated by the density of pure black dots, not by dots of varying density. Think half-tone vs continuous tone. You can test this yourself right now: print an image (OHP or paper) on the 1400 after selecting "Grayscale" in the Epson driver, then examine the image with a loupe.

Some additional tips:

- use hardware/software/ink that has been successfully used by others, else be prepared to go it alone when
problems arise (and they will).
- use ink known to adhere well to the OHP you plan to use. Conversely, don't use an OHP that does not
hold a sufficient quantity of ink or smears/scratches readily. Pictorico/Inkpress/Arista work very well.
Epson Ultrachrome dries quickly on these films and doesn't bleed when dry. Piezography makes nice
negatives but dries slowly and is more fragile than Ultrachrome.
- verify everything with your own testing
- don't forget there is a huge difference between UV and ortho sensitivity. alt processes and silver gelatin
have different requirements.

Philip I don't have a 14xx yet although I take your word for it. If I already had the 1430 I would jump straight into the piezography inks for sure.

Thanks for the tips, I noticed from some of your earlier postings you used the carbon inks and Premium OHP and getting very fragile negs. Is this still the case, or have you moved into the selenium with Ultra premium without these issues?
I plan to get started on silver then move to platino swiftly, figured I'd try get a future proof system for both now though.

Both Piezography carbon and warm neutral make slow drying, somewhat fragile negatives on Inkpress. I wouldn't expect Pictorico to be any different. I keep negative in polypropylene bags forever after they are dry so it's not a big problem, but Ultrachrome negs are much more robust -- you can even wash them and they don't bleed.
I like the 1400, but I probably wouldn't recommend it as a first printer for digital negatives since it requires a lot of customization. You might want to see if you can find a used or refurbished Epson K3 Ultrachrome desktop.

pschwart said:

Both Piezography carbon and warm neutral make slow drying, somewhat fragile negatives on Inkpress. I wouldn't expect Pictorico to be any different. I keep negative in polypropylene bags forever after they are dry so it's not a big problem, but Ultrachrome negs are much more robust -- you can even wash them and they don't bleed.
I like the 1400, but I probably wouldn't recommend it as a first printer for digital negatives since it requires a lot of customization. You might want to see if you can find a used or refurbished Epson K3 Ultrachrome desktop.

Click to expand...

Good news Philip, I just acquired an r800 a few moments ago. Fully working (used by a student for their HSC examinations here) for an exceptional price.
Only A4 but this will get me started for now before I decide to invest further.


I guess I was either wrong about the sales or very lucky
p.s. I am a student myself.......