Pictorico recommends PK

Colin Graham · Jul 21, 2008

Has anyone seen this? Odd, because I've had no luck at all with Epson's photoblack. Comes out very weak and grainy- on the 3800 anyway. Anyone having success with it?

Ron-san · Jul 21, 2008

Colin Graham said:
Has anyone seen this? Odd, because I've had no luck at all with Epson's photoblack. Comes out very weak and grainy- on the 3800 anyway. Anyone having success with it?

Colin-- Pictorico is probably talking about ink usage for making overhead projection transparencies for business presentations or for making advertising displays. This has little to do with making digital negatives. In the K3 inkset (the inkset used by the 3800) photoblack is a relatively weak UV absorber. It is difficult to get enough UV blocking with Photoblack to print on a pure palladium emulsion. Matte black is a much better UV blocker. So, for digital negatives destined for UV printing processes, I always choose matte Black. Cheers, Ron Reeder

Colin Graham · Jul 21, 2008

Hi Ron- I though of this too, but I first received the printer I tried simply printing out a RGB color array on OHP and black as well as the denser colors towards black printed very weakly and very granular with PK and very rich and smooth with the MK ink. This is purely WYSWYG, I didn't even bother contact printing the PK array. Anyway, maybe it's something on my end. I've having other issues with grain and banding on the printer, so perhaps I have a dud.

donbga · Jul 21, 2008

Colin Graham said:
Hi Ron- I though of this too, but I first received the printer I tried simply printing out a RGB color array on OHP and the denser colors towards black printed very weakly and very granular with PK and very rich and smooth with the MK ink. This is purely WYSWYG, I didn't even bother contact printing the PK array. Anyway, maybe it's something on my end. I've having other issues with grain and banding on the printer, so perhaps I have a dud.

Colin,

Here is a link to a very lenghy essay about the Epson 3800 written by Giorgio Trucco. It's not directed at printing digital negatives but there maybe some useful information anyway.

http://www.outbackphoto.com/printinginsights/pi045/essay.html#20070201

You may wish to visit Eric Chan's website for the 3800 also:

http://people.csail.mit.edu/ericchan/dp/Epson3800/index.html

Don Bryant

Colin Graham · Jul 21, 2008

Thanks Don. I bookmarked both of these sites when I was researching the printer, but promptly forgot about them when the printer arrived. Thanks for reminding me.

I'm curious though- and it's entirely possible that I'm just not ready for a professional grade printer- about the high maintenance of this printer. I'm having to run heavy nozzle cleanings two mornings running to clear up banding problems, and the maintenance cart is 2/3 full after only four days of use. I'm turning the printer off after using it, too. I'm a touch dyslexic, so I usually spend a great deal of effort confirming that I do have a problem and haven't simply missed something basic.

All especially confusing because the output for B&W prints with the Advanced B&W seems pretty excellent. No weakness and grain with the PK inks on PK papers, no banding, output is exactly like what's on my monitor. But printing on pictorico everything sort of goes sideways. Both with the color array method ala RNP and QTR both, using either methods proven on my old HP (which was relatively painless and maintenance free), recommended settings from manufactures, or RIP developers as the situation dictates. I think I will avail myself of some tech support at this point, because no amount of profile, ink or surface tweaking produce any meaningful changes. I couldn't even see the banding on my HP negatives and they'd show up in the print, these are plainly visible. The heavy nozzle cleanings help somewhat, but not completely. Which leads me to believe I must have a defective unit, or despite my best efforts have missed something obvious.

Anyway, (if anyone else ever has these problems) with QTR I've tried Ron's shared carbon profile, curve on and off; tweaking K boost and CMY densities. I was able to improve grain a little over the strait carbonprint profile, but the banding is still there. With the straight profile I've used normal and adaptive hybrid, 1440 super and 2880 dpi, MK and matte paper and PK and photo paper (just to compare), uni- and bi-directional. Is there a way to adjust print feed in the RIP? The Epson manual says to adjust it up or down depending on light or dark banding. I was thinking of trying that with color RNP negs today, maybe try to create a custom profile for the pictorico with adjusted print feed and drytime. But I don't want to waste another 14 hours on this today if all this sounds odd to 3800 users.

donbga · Jul 21, 2008

Colin Graham said:
Thanks Don. I bookmarked both of these sites when I was researching the printer, but promptly forgot about them when the printer arrived. Thanks for reminding me.

I'm curious though- and it's entirely possible that I'm just not ready for a professional grade printer- about the high maintenance of this printer. I'm having to run heavy nozzle cleanings two mornings running to clear up banding problems, and the maintenance cart is 2/3 full after only four days of use. I'm turning the printer off after using it, too. I'm a touch dyslexic, so I usually spend a great deal of effort confirming that I do have a problem and haven't simply missed something basic.

All especially confusing because the output for B&W prints with the Advanced B&W seems pretty excellent. No weakness and grain with the PK inks on PK papers, no banding, output is exactly like what's on my monitor. But printing on pictorico everything sort of goes sideways. Both with the color array method ala RNP and QTR both, using either methods proven on my old HP (which was relatively painless and maintenance free), recommended settings from manufactures, or RIP developers as the situation dictates. I think I will avail myself of some tech support at this point, because no amount of profile, ink or surface tweaking produce any meaningful changes. I couldn't even see the banding on my HP negatives and they'd show up in the print, these are plainly visible. The heavy nozzle cleanings help somewhat, but not completely. Which leads me to believe I must have a defective unit, or despite my best efforts have missed something obvious.

Anyway, (if anyone else ever has these problems) with QTR I've tried Ron's shared carbon profile, curve on and off; tweaking K boost and CMY densities. I was able to improve grain a little over the strait carbonprint profile, but the banding is still there. With the straight profile I've used normal and adaptive hybrid, 1440 super and 2880 dpi, MK and matte paper and PK and photo paper (just to compare), uni- and bi-directional. Is there a way to adjust print feed in the RIP? The Epson manual says to adjust it up or down depending on light or dark banding. I was thinking of trying that with color RNP negs today, maybe try to create a custom profile for the pictorico with adjusted print feed and drytime. But I don't want to waste another 14 hours on this today if all this sounds odd to 3800 users.

Colin,

If you are having all of those problems I would contact Epson since the 3800 is considered to be a Pro level printer. Get a new unit if you can. The 3800 should be a relatively low maintenance printer. I know a good handful people who own and use the 3800 for digi-negs and they are not experiencing the problems you are using Pictorico. Perhaps there is some operator error involved but that's hard to say from here.

I do have a question though. Have you printed the inseperation.psd or inkseperation.tif file and examined the output from that file using QTR on Pictorico? And you may try printing the same file using the Epson driver to see if there is a notable difference. Just a thought.

Good luck,

Don Bryant

Kerik · Jul 21, 2008

Yeah, something sounds off. I rarely need to run a head cleaning on mine. It's a 1.5 years old and I'm only on my second maintenance tank.

Colin Graham · Jul 21, 2008

Thanks for the input. Great suggestion Don, I'll try that right now. It may been something went way funky with the RIP install.

Colin Graham · Jul 21, 2008

Well, no joy. Still really grainy and a little banded. Time to stick a fork in this one. Epson's support is pretty great- they're overnighting a new one (not a refurb! yay). Thanks again Don, Kerik and Ron for the input and suggestions.

sanking · Jul 21, 2008

Don Bryant said:
I do have a question though. Have you printed the inseperation.psd or inkseperation.tif file and examined the output from that file using QTR on Pictorico? And you may try printing the same file using the Epson driver to see if there is a notable difference. Just a thought.

Good luck,

Don Bryant

Colin,

I understand that you have used PDN? If so, you might also want to print out the 101 step wedge using the Epson 3800 driver using advanced black. I think that might give you pizza wheel marks but it should still serve as good indicator if something is wrong.

When I first got my Epson 3800 I had to run several cleaning cycles before I could get it to print the noozle check as it should. But I never had to run the heavy cleaning cycle, and it has been clear since then.

Sandy King

Colin Graham · Jul 21, 2008

Sandy,

I was using RNP, Michael Koch-Schulte's version. I printed out a ChartThrob tablet in addition to trying Ron's step tablet- you never know. I tried them both with PS color management and profiles (composite black), the advanced B&W (PS off), and finally the QTR rip. They all print with the same artifacts, more or less.

I did read that initial nozzle cleaning was sometimes necessary with these, but it never seemed to really help here. In my desperation I didn't spare the maintenance cycles. Maybe that's how the maintenance cart got so full.

I'm not too worried about it though- clearly the printer is capable of fantastic results. The gradients I was seeing with the QTR negatives were fantastic- especially in the shadows and midtones where the artifacts were masked somewhat. It's mainly the highlights where the grain and banding is so obvious. And I finally thought to put a regular B&W print on the lighttable- banding there too. The texture of the luster paper just masked it a little better. Still, they look really nice. Can't wait to see what a *good* 3800 does! I was a little worried Epson would just chuck a refurb in the mail, so I was reluctant to call. But I'm relieved they're sending a new one.

Pictorico recommends PK

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