Photoshop Frustration for a Film Photographer

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David Brown

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When the digital revolution started, I was not an early adopter. My friend and fellow photographer, the late Lee Carmichael, said that he was too old to start over and learn a whole new method of working. I agreed with Lee, especially since I was not using color for my own work. If I had still been trying to make any money at photography – as in my wedding shooter days – I would have had to switch, but as a hobbyist, I saw no need.

I was never really anti-digital. We’ve had a digital camera since we bought a one megapixel (count’em: one) and a series of successors including a full frame DSLR. It’s been years since I exposed a frame of color film for anything. Digital replaced color film for the vacation snaps.

However, I have reached the limits of my self-taught digital expertise. Digital is a very different way of working, and it has a steep learning curve, in spite of the myth of its simplicity. Fortunately, I have changed my mind about being to old to learn it. I’m getting serious about the transition to serious color (digital) photography. (Not replacing the black and white darkroom, but adding color to my repertoire.)

As part of the transition, I just completed a Photoshop class. I had almost forgotten that I had taken a class before, probably 12-15 years ago – early Photoshop. It was a continuing ed class at a local college, and met a couple of nights a week for several weeks, as I recall. I do remember the early class was largely made up of grandmothers who wanted to learn how to get their grandbaby pictures out of the camera and on to this new-fangled internet thing. (Photoshop is overkill for that, but …) I also remember that the instructor spent a lot of time on showing us what I still refer to as the “gadgets” in Photoshop. Use this filter and your picture will look like a painting. Here’s one that will make everything all swirly.

Beyond the gadgets, we also spent a bit of time doing retouching, or restoration, mostly with the clone and healing brush tools. Both are valuable, and I use them! Not so much the gadget filters. But very little time was spent on plain old “post-processing” of good photographs.

The just completed class has not been a waste of time, by any means, but it has also been disappointing in some ways. We met for a total of 10 hours over 4 sessions, and spent much of the time making composites, or switching out one person’s head in a group shot with their head from another exposure. But, while using layers (for everything) was heavily emphasized, not near enough time was spent on making clean selections.

And most disappointingly, very little time on color correction and absolutely no time on preparing files for printing. Dodging and burning were never mentioned. Contrast was never discussed.
What was I expecting, or more to the point, what is it I was wanting out of the class?

In spite of Adobe’s current marketing of Lightroom as the “digital darkroom”, Photoshop was the original flagship digital darkroom software and remains the industry standard. Tools in early versions were based on darkroom printing procedures; i.e., dodging and burning, contrast control, color correction, unsharp masks, etc. All of those tools remain, of course. Layers, channels, and the like facilitate more effective use of (for lack of a better word) traditional tools. I get that.

However, I have yet to find a class, including online, that really approaches using the software in the same way that one works in a darkroom. Photoshop can do so much more than “process” your photographs. I get that. And maybe for users who have never worked in a darkroom, the old terminology is foreign and confusing. I get that.

But for those of us who grew up in chemical darkrooms, and even beginning photographers who have been fortunate to have been trained in both media, is it so much to ask to have instruction tailored to us?
While I hardly mind knowing the, let’s say, graphic arts processes (perhaps a nicer name than gadgets) it is not what I do primarily. I’ve been using Photoshop for many years. I make prints. I exhibit and sell color (digital) photographs. I published a book of the same. But I am self-taught for the most part and I know there is so much more I could learn. There is more I could do with the software, or do what I already do more efficiently and effectively. Curves, levels, channels; all would come into better play if I could find the proper type of instruction for serious photographers.

I asked the instructor if perhaps I was using the wrong software (would Lightroom be better for me?) or was I just taking the wrong classes? Really could not get a satisfying answer.

Maybe it’s just the current style in photographs. HDR is a big thing. Stitching is a big thing. Heavy, often unrealistic “retouching” is a thing. Compositing perfect group shots from multiple “captures” is a thing. This class was geared toward, if anybody, a beginning photographer doing the usual weddings and portraits. But what of the “fine-art” photographer? I work hard to get it in camera, and now just wish to fine tune the image, and prepare the file for printing.

Remember printing? Is that not a thing, anymore. Perhaps I’m on to something …
 

Doyle Thomas

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Digital is a very different way of working, and it has a steep learning curve

there are a lot of resources on the net
 

jeffreyg

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David

My wet darkroom work remains the same as before, printing on traditional silver gelatin paper, platinum/palladium printing on hand coated paper and vellum. I also print from scanned negatives with an Epson 3880 predominately on paper but also to make enlarged negatives for pt/pd. I use PhotoShop 5 as I would do in the darkroom especially for negatives needing more than I can accomplish in the darkroom. I found software that is compatible with PS that m ay be of interest to you. It is Photo 10 from On1. I believe they have a free trial version and they have many excellent tutorials. Another resource that may be of interest to you is the PhotoShop book by Martin Evening (could be out of print but you can probably find a copy).

http://www.jeffreyglasser.com/
 

mdarnton

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I think you were taking the wrong class. While the techniques do not directly transfer in the way you want (I virtually never do something I'd call burning, but there are digital ways to accomplish the same task with much better results), all of the things you want to do could be taught in a couple of hours or less. Some things that would be nearly impossible in silver are a snap in digital, and I would never want to go back into the darkroom! I found readjusting my approach to things to be the most difficult part of it; the learning curve itself is not steep.
 

RalphLambrecht

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When the digital revolution started, I was not an early adopter. My friend and fellow photographer, the late Lee Carmichael, said that he was too old to start over and learn a whole new method of working. I agreed with Lee, especially since I was not using color for my own work. If I had still been trying to make any money at photography – as in my wedding shooter days – I would have had to switch, but as a hobbyist, I saw no need.

I was never really anti-digital. We’ve had a digital camera since we bought a one megapixel (count’em: one) and a series of successors including a full frame DSLR. It’s been years since I exposed a frame of color film for anything. Digital replaced color film for the vacation snaps.

However, I have reached the limits of my self-taught digital expertise. Digital is a very different way of working, and it has a steep learning curve, in spite of the myth of its simplicity. Fortunately, I have changed my mind about being to old to learn it. I’m getting serious about the transition to serious color (digital) photography. (Not replacing the black and white darkroom, but adding color to my repertoire.)

As part of the transition, I just completed a Photoshop class. I had almost forgotten that I had taken a class before, probably 12-15 years ago – early Photoshop. It was a continuing ed class at a local college, and met a couple of nights a week for several weeks, as I recall. I do remember the early class was largely made up of grandmothers who wanted to learn how to get their grandbaby pictures out of the camera and on to this new-fangled internet thing. (Photoshop is overkill for that, but …) I also remember that the instructor spent a lot of time on showing us what I still refer to as the “gadgets” in Photoshop. Use this filter and your picture will look like a painting. Here’s one that will make everything all swirly.

Beyond the gadgets, we also spent a bit of time doing retouching, or restoration, mostly with the clone and healing brush tools. Both are valuable, and I use them! Not so much the gadget filters. But very little time was spent on plain old “post-processing” of good photographs.

The just completed class has not been a waste of time, by any means, but it has also been disappointing in some ways. We met for a total of 10 hours over 4 sessions, and spent much of the time making composites, or switching out one person’s head in a group shot with their head from another exposure. But, while using layers (for everything) was heavily emphasized, not near enough time was spent on making clean selections.

And most disappointingly, very little time on color correction and absolutely no time on preparing files for printing. Dodging and burning were never mentioned. Contrast was never discussed.
What was I expecting, or more to the point, what is it I was wanting out of the class?

In spite of Adobe’s current marketing of Lightroom as the “digital darkroom”, Photoshop was the original flagship digital darkroom software and remains the industry standard. Tools in early versions were based on darkroom printing procedures; i.e., dodging and burning, contrast control, color correction, unsharp masks, etc. All of those tools remain, of course. Layers, channels, and the like facilitate more effective use of (for lack of a better word) traditional tools. I get that.

However, I have yet to find a class, including online, that really approaches using the software in the same way that one works in a darkroom. Photoshop can do so much more than “process” your photographs. I get that. And maybe for users who have never worked in a darkroom, the old terminology is foreign and confusing. I get that.

But for those of us who grew up in chemical darkrooms, and even beginning photographers who have been fortunate to have been trained in both media, is it so much to ask to have instruction tailored to us?
While I hardly mind knowing the, let’s say, graphic arts processes (perhaps a nicer name than gadgets) it is not what I do primarily. I’ve been using Photoshop for many years. I make prints. I exhibit and sell color (digital) photographs. I published a book of the same. But I am self-taught for the most part and I know there is so much more I could learn. There is more I could do with the software, or do what I already do more efficiently and effectively. Curves, levels, channels; all would come into better play if I could find the proper type of instruction for serious photographers.

I asked the instructor if perhaps I was using the wrong software (would Lightroom be better for me?) or was I just taking the wrong classes? Really could not get a satisfying answer.

Maybe it’s just the current style in photographs. HDR is a big thing. Stitching is a big thing. Heavy, often unrealistic “retouching” is a thing. Compositing perfect group shots from multiple “captures” is a thing. This class was geared toward, if anybody, a beginning photographer doing the usual weddings and portraits. But what of the “fine-art” photographer? I work hard to get it in camera, and now just wish to fine tune the image, and prepare the file for printing.

Remember printing? Is that not a thing, anymore. Perhaps I’m on to something …
Sounds like you got stuck in the wrong class. I happen to believe that Ps is the ideal tool for what you are trying to do,and I also believe that PS is complex but not hard to learn;actually,knowing your way around a darkroom makes it easier to develop a successful digital workflow;so many steps are identical in execution and purpose.I'm currently working on a digital companion to 'Way Beyond Monochrome' called"Digital Monochrome",highlighting the similarities between light- and darkroom work.I may add some APUGERs as test readers,because people going from analog to digital is my target group.:smile:
 

ann

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DAVID

Give Topaz labs a try, they have a wide variety of tools which can be used as a plug in within photoshop, dodging and burning is done with a brush, that can be adjusted as you wish. They have webinars which are easy to follow and if you sign up for one, they always give a serious discount for that particular package. Updates are always free .

as the others have indicated , wrong class. wrong style of work for you,
 
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David Brown

David Brown

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Sounds like you got stuck in the wrong class.

... as the others have indicated , wrong class. wrong style of work for you,

Yep. That was more or less my point. :cool2:

I think it's likely a sign of the times that Photoshop classes are generally taught from the standpoint of having never been in a darkroom. And, "I get that". This instructor was close to my age, a working pro, and, of course, had done film in the past. But, he knows his market. And it isn't me. (We talked)

But even coming from a digital only approach, I just don't see how one can minimalize or even totally ignore basic color, tonal balance, contrast, printing, etc.!

I'm currently working on a digital companion to 'Way Beyond Monochrome' called"Digital Monochrome",highlighting the similarities between light- and darkroom work. I may add some APUGERs as test readers,because people going from analog to digital is my target group.:smile:

Looking forward to this. :smile:
 

StoneNYC

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Personally I don't see the need for PS at all, LR (Lightroom) does everything I need.

The only thing I used to use PS for was dust spotting, the clone/heal tools are much more capable, but LR is much better now so I don't use PS for that either anymore.

I do use it for stitching, but not like other people use it for. I scan my 11x14 and 14x17 negatives in sections and stitch them before editing in LR as normal.

So I say give it a try.
 
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David Brown

David Brown

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Personally I don't see the need for PS at all, LR (Lightroom) does everything I need.

Thanks, Stone. While I appreciate your suggestion, it really doesn't address the issue. You have chosen to use Lightroom since it suits your needs. I have Lightroom as well, but I prefer Photoshop. (Which, even as you hinted at, does things LR doesn't do.) I have also found the same frustrations with tutorials on Lightroom, so there ya are.

LR vs. PS always reminds me of Nikon vs. Canon. Makes me like my Sony ... :D
 

mdarnton

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I have had a very hard time with programs "designed" for photographers, other than Photoshop. The PS model is very direct, and for someone who grew up in the darkroom the others were more obscure. When I do something, I like to know exactly what's happening, and they like to hide that for ease of use. WTF is "clarity", anyway (I see PS finally added that dog)? As near as I can tell, it's an uncontrollable mess of about five things you can control individually with more specificity in basic Photoshop.

In PS, once you understand levels, you pretty much understand the program, since everything extends outward from there: curves is levels with more intermediate sliders; other options are just various selection methods combined with levels. It's pretty direct, as programs go, in terms of understanding the process behind the curtain, and for someone with a darkroom/technical mind, it's fast to pick up, once you get a handle on the basics.
 

removed account4

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hi david

i agree, PS is frustrating. there is a lot there. and a lot of it doesn't get used by the average person.
i hate to suggest one of those "dummy" books but sometimes they can be helpful and the authors write it in language that makes it
easy for people who aren't experts to understand. i used those books ( actully one was for "the complete idiot" and the other for "the klutz" )
when i rebuilt a vw bug, and tried to learn how to juggle. i can't juggle very well but if i had to,
i could still drop the engine on a vintage bug, de-gunk it, have do a "head job" inspect the rods, add an external oil cooler and header exhaust ...
i know my local bookstore has stacks full of books that cater to learning photoshop,
some of them are good, and some are better, maybe better than the CE course you took ...
i used to use photoshop elements and there was a book that i bought that explained it, and a cd that came with it to "unlock secrets"
which were stacked actions in 1 key stroke to make it simpler to use. i havne't used it in a long time
but i am guessing it did stuff like "control shift T = separated the image file into separation negatives to work on color channels separately" instead of
duplicating and deleting the unwanted channels, it was easy and automated. maybe getting a less-amped version of photoshop ( like elements ? ) might be more useful ---
you wouldn't even be tempted to use "lab color" or "de-matrixed shaping and feathering"

i've been thinking of going to elements because i don't use most of what is in PS, and it seems like a waste ( but 10$ a month is tempting ) ...
i just have to make sure that color channels and the healing tool/cloner and a few other things i use all the time are in there.
unfortunately, i use less than 10% of what PS offers and even if i took classes, read books and learned about it all, i'd probably be in the same boat
and end up going on youtube to remind myself how to use "easy mask" the 3 times every 2 years i attempt to use it ...

good luck !
john
 
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Bob Carnie

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David- I prefer PS to Lightroom- I am using it for all kinds of applications in separating negatives that Lightroom has not been designed for.

If you want an instructor - go to Kelby Training and do all of Dan Margulis videos.. he is old school and goes at it from basics.
 

mdarnton

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John N's comments remind me that for much of what I do, I don't need PS at all. For that, the free program Faststone Image Viewer (http://faststone.org/) does everything I need quite well, some things better. It opens as a file viewer, and a double click on any photo opens it in a clean screen with all options available as hovers around the screen perimeter or via a right-click menu. If you don't need to do anything except make a photo look better, it often will do the trick.
 

OzJohn

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I have had a very hard time with programs "designed" for photographers, other than Photoshop. The PS model is very direct, and for someone who grew up in the darkroom the others were more obscure. When I do something, I like to know exactly what's happening, and they like to hide that for ease of use. WTF is "clarity", anyway (I see PS finally added that dog)? As near as I can tell, it's an uncontrollable mess of about five things you can control individually with more specificity in basic Photoshop.

In PS, once you understand levels, you pretty much understand the program, since everything extends outward from there: curves is levels with more intermediate sliders; other options are just various selection methods combined with levels. It's pretty direct, as programs go, in terms of understanding the process behind the curtain, and for someone with a darkroom/technical mind, it's fast to pick up, once you get a handle on the basics.

I like your reply particularly your comments about levels. Even admitting to ever using levels is heresy to many opinionated forum contributors who will only accept curves for doing even what amounts to basic levels! Both have their uses - I sometimes prefer curves for density and contrast - but levels so perfectly syncs with how I used to adjust colour in the darkroom that it was a natural to learn when I started digital.

I once owned a video colour analyser that would have cost its original purchaser the price of a modest car. It was one of the most underwhelming devices I ever owned because trying to finely adjust colour on a dreadful low res screen using an involved measurement process was nowhere near as quick or effective as using a conventional analyser with a photo diode probe. When I first starting using Photoshop I reckoned that in levels I had found the best colour analyser ever made that could show me finer colour adjustments than any analog video system and translate them to a print file that was able to reproduce exactly what I had seen on the screen.

There are other programs that can do some of the things in Photoshop, perhaps even a bit better, but there is no other software that has the capacity to do just about anything a digital photographer may wish to do. The road may not always be obvious but there are so many tools in there that there is usually a way. There is also a vast array of learning material on even the most obscure aspects of Photoshop. Failing all else, and a bit like phone apps, someone has almost certainly written a PS plug-in to do it. OzJohn
 

mdarnton

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Thanks for saying that. The funny thing is that some things you can do with levels are basically impossible to do in a subtle way with curves alone. A quick levels layer changes the whole tonal landscape, then a curves layer fine tunes it.

Heck, I even use brightness/contrast. That would probably get me banned from some forums. :smile: They put all of those things in PS because each one has its own best uses. Once you figure them out, you can head for the best one for the job you need to do.

Another cheap trick in PS is any "auto" button. A relative of mine had an important job to do on deadling for work and didn't know a thing about PS, but had to use it. I told him that when he was confused, try pressing "auto" for color, curves, or levels, just to see what PS wanted to do. A lot of the time, if things are messed up, it gets you really close and at least gives good ideas.
 

removed account4

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mdarnton
you are funny :smile:
i use brightness+contrast all the time,
and i have never been able to figure curves out
a friend was going to tell me about curves, for both tonality
and color correction, but it never happened, and even the most basic
of books has never made any sense. another friend who was the GD at a newspaper
i worked at showed me a trick by using the eye dropper and there were magic numbers
human flesh was supposed to be, i pretty much gave up and just use my untrained color blind eye
to determine if something "looks right" ... oh well.
the program you linked to (faststone) looks good, does one have to download all 4? or are they
just 4 different views of the same thing? and do they only work in a windows "environment"

( sorry for the tangent david ! )
john
 

mdarnton

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You just need the image viewer, but it only runs on windows.

I saw a great program for Mac the other day, but then promptly forgot it, since I don't use one. I think this is it:
https://affinity.serif.com/en-us/photo/
But I won't be able to help if you get in trouble. :smile:
 

John_M_King

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I started using a darkroom way back around 1962 and eventually gave it up (temporarily) in 2001 but since then went back to it running in parrallel with digital and still do, processing both B&W and RA4. I mostly use film and for the digital side I have gone back to using a Nikon 50ED scanner. (A truly stunning piece of kit)

I have never used any software other than Photoshop, starting off with Photoshop 6 then upgrading it to CS2 and now CS4. I do not need anything else. Over the years I have self learneed what works and what doesn't so can get around most situations, possibly not as quick as some but the end result is what is essentially the same.

I have thought of changing to Elements, but until the CS4 pops it clogs I have really no need to.

There are some things which I cannot get my head around and that is the use of layers and HD images, but hey-ho I got by without them for so long I can live without it. What I do miss is the facility to print pages of thumbnails of a film which was dropped after CS2. But I get around that by using the PS6 disc on my laptop (still running Windows XP). I will continue to use all forms of processing, both traditional or digital.
 

OzJohn

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There are some things which I cannot get my head around and that is the use of layers and HD images, but hey-ho I got by without them for so long I can live without it. What I do miss is the facility to print pages of thumbnails of a film which was dropped after CS2. But I get around that by using the PS6 disc on my laptop (still running Windows XP). I will continue to use all forms of processing, both traditional or digital.

John you can (?could) get CS2 again, apparently free, from Adobe together with an activation code. It can be loaded on the same computer as CS4 or any other version you just can't run more than one version at the same time. Might get your contact sheets back. I use a another program to do them but I think Adobe pulled the wrong string when they dropped that feature as a lot of people liked it. There are ways to produce contact sheets using Bridge in later versions including CS4 but I've not explored them. OzJohn
 

mdarnton

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There are some things which I cannot get my head around and that is the use of layers. . . .

Layers are really straightforward: when you do something like levels on the photo it throws out some data to make the change; then you do a color adjustment, and that takes what was left, and throws out some more data to make that change. And on and on. By the time you get done with various things, you've thrown out so much that the quality starts to degrade.

The way around that is layers. You put on adjustment layers for each change you want to make. The program shows you what they will do, but it is like looking through a filter---what's underneath hasn't changed. Then when you have a pile of them and want the final image, PS sums all of the changes first, and applies only that sum, just once to the original, minimizing the degradation.

When you go to the histogram and it looks all spiky, that's degradation. With layers you have less of that. The first place you'll see it is in things like skies, where your picture turns to funny stripes and patches instead of staying continuous tone.
 
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David Brown

David Brown

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Heck, I even use brightness/contrast. That would probably get me banned from some forums. :smile: They put all of those things in PS because each one has its own best uses.

Another cheap trick in PS is any "auto" button. ... try pressing "auto" for color, curves, or levels, just to see what PS wanted to do.

Agreed. Tools are tools. Sometimes a hand tool will do the job when you don't need power ... :wink:
 
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David Brown

David Brown

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David- I prefer PS to Lightroom- I am using it for all kinds of applications in separating negatives that Lightroom has not been designed for.

If you want an instructor - go to Kelby Training and do all of Dan Margulis videos.. he is old school and goes at it from basics.

Thanks, Bob! I've got Margulis in the list of future things to do.
 

removed account4

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You just need the image viewer, but it only runs on windows.

I saw a great program for Mac the other day, but then promptly forgot it, since I don't use one. I think this is it:
https://affinity.serif.com/en-us/photo/
But I won't be able to help if you get in trouble. :smile:

mdarnton

well, i took the bull by the horns and downloaded the free trial of the program, but before i did
i called their phone number to ask a few customer pre-sales questions
basically that was a bust, they didn't / couldn't answer any questions, and suggested i download the free trial
and ask questions in their question/answer forum.
i figured why not, its free for a few days, and hopefully someone in the forum has experience
in saving things for the web, and using color channels, the main thing i use PS for at this point.

well, i downloaded the program on the 6th and registered on their forum.
they have a delay for when questions can be visible, they need to be approved to make sure you aren't a bot or spam, i was OK with that.
it took several days ( 4 ) for my question to be visible and answered, or so it seemed. i went back to the forum several times between the 7th and 11th and my question
didnt' appear. i PM'd admin/moderator staff, and they didnt' respond to my asks for help. i eventually went to the main website
and sent a question to customer service staff off the website, that person actually DID try to help me.
and as i was supplying my user name so he( or she? ) could prod admin/moderators
to post my question, somehow "the plug in the pipe gave way" and my question was there, and strangely enough it had an answer on it from 4 days before.
the answer wasn't much help though, i guess i was asking for things the program wasn't designed for, and didnt' have short cut to do things (
save for the web ) so it will have to be multi-step process to do what PS does in 1-click.
i did exchange PM with someone who was helpful and i was told to ask the question again in the forum ... the clock was ticking ! 2 days until my free trial expired, and
FINALLY today i got an answer for my color channel ( i just posed 2 questions ) it was how you use color channels to drag and drop b/w RGB files into them
( like with PS ) and create a tri chrome or self constructed color image. well, as soon as i tried to do what was suggested, my free 10 day trial was over.

they do have a great video tutorial section for things that are helpful. the forum is there, and seems pretty active, and if you have ez questions they seem to be answered,
but as a new user, with a trial period, and seemingly difficult questions that aren't run-of-the-mill / ordinary things that everyone does all the time
( like fix/heal/resize/levels+contrast &c ) it might take a while to get postes posted and answered and in hte meantime,your free trial will dry up.
i did call customer service again on the phone and relayed my tale of woe, but they go by date stamps, and it seemed like my questions
were answered in a timely fashion and i was being unreasonable in my crankyness that the trial ended before my questions were answered ..
the reality they didn't want to believe was it took nearly 1/2 the free trial period for my questions to actually be visible on the forum question/answer board.
no offer of an extension of my free trial ( costs them nothing )

oh well.

i think im just going to pony up the $10/month for PS and use that seeing i am unable to get definitive answers from adobe if elements will
do color channels as i need them, and the handful of other things i use PS for.

thanks for the head's up about the program, but i dont' think i will get it, even though the price is right ... it ended up being more stressful and not as useful as i had hoped.
 

mdarnton

Member
Joined
Mar 4, 2008
Messages
463
Location
Chicago
Format
35mm RF
Yeah, all other issues aside, Photoshop is really the perfect program for a lot of photography jobs. I look around regularly and try different other things, but they always lose to PS.
 
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