Photokina: Positive news for film

markbarendt · Sep 29, 2008

Henning Serger said:
Hello,

Ilford Photo (Harman Technologies): Ive missed them. They had no booth (I know the reasons why, but nevertheless, its a pity). The Ilford managers met their distributers in a hotel.

I hope this short report about film on this years Photokina was interesting for you. And sorry for my bad english, I am German .

Best regards,
Henning

Very interesting actually, thanks.

For those of us not so well informed, why wasn't Ilford there?

frdrx · Sep 29, 2008

Thank you. I'm thrilled by the resurrected RSX emulsion.

kraker · Sep 29, 2008

(Yet another) thanks for your report, very interesting!

Henning Serger · Sep 29, 2008

Henning Serger said:
.....
Recently Ive made intensive film tests, especially the new films of the last two years. With these Films (e.g. Provia 400X, TMY-2, Rollei ATP), but with older ones as well (TMX, Acros, Delta 100, APX 100, Provia 100F, Velvia 100F, Sensia 100, Kodak E100G, Elitechrome 100) , Ive got very high resolution with my best prime lenses. System resolution of 100 130 Lp/mm with ISO 100/21° BW and slide films are no problem at all. With films like Rollei ATP, Rollei Ortho, Kodak Imagelink or Spur Orthopan UR (= Adox CMS 20).
.....

Best regards,
Henning

Sorry, the last sentence is not complete. That happens if you are writing in the night being tired....So, here is the right sentence:

With films like Rollei ATP, Rollei Ortho 25, Kodak Imagelink or Spur Orthopan UR (= Adox CMS 20) you can achieve even much better resolution (160-200 LP/mm or more; it depends on the quality of your prime lens).

Best regards,
Henning

mrtoml · Sep 29, 2008

Thanks, Henning, for a great report.

I was just curious about what Kodak said (that they had long term contracts that might last up to 10 years). Did they give an indication who these contracts were with? Presumably this is the movie industry?

Henning Serger · Sep 29, 2008

@ all: Thank you very much for your positive feedback!! Nice to hear that my report is interesting for you.

mabman said:
Interesting - for a while (post-Kodak deal ending) it looked like they had dropped off the film map. By chance did they say anything about their B&W offerings? For a while now the SHD100 still seems to be available on eBay, but SHD400 seems to have disappeared.

Also, did they say anything about distribution outside of China (other than eBay sellers)?

Hello mabman,

according to my information they recently coated a new run of SHD 100. They gave me a test sample of this film and their new CN films.
We didn't talk about distribution outside Asia.
Perhaps because I am very satisfied with my Kodak, Fuji, Ilford and Rollei films .

Best regards,
Henning

Henning Serger · Sep 29, 2008

markbarendt said:
Very interesting actually, thanks.

For those of us not so well informed, why wasn't Ilford there?

Hello Mark,

they said the costs would be too high, and the benefits too low. That was their business decision.

But consider this: Even very small firms like Moersch, Kienzle, Heiland, Fotoimpex....and lots of others were there, like Maco/Rollei-Film, Freestyle and Foma.
All were reporting much interest and good business.
And they "flied a flag" for analogue photography (I hope I've said it right, or is it "to set a flag"?). And exactly that is what the market needs: Hey guys, we are here, film is alive and kicking!
And Ilford stand for BW Photography as no other company.

I've started my darkroom work and my BW photography with Ilford products, when I was 17 years old. Since then I've used Ilford products, and I was always very satisfied. And I intend to use Ilford products for the rest of my life (as well as Kodak, Fuji, Rollei and some others).

I hope Ilford will reconsider their decision and will be at Photokina 2010. I have missed them very much this year.
Please, brave Knights of Knutsford, go on!

Best regards,
Henning

Henning Serger · Sep 29, 2008

mrtoml said:
Thanks, Henning, for a great report.

I was just curious about what Kodak said (that they had long term contracts that might last up to 10 years). Did they give an indication who these contracts were with? Presumably this is the movie industry?

Hello Mark,

they were referring to an official statement of Mr. Perez, Kodak CEO. And he said contracts with big clients for both photo an film (movie film) products.
This statement was also published in a special film magazin in Germany earlier this year ("Schmalfilm", 02/2008).

Best regards,
Henning

markbarendt · Sep 29, 2008

Thanks Henning.

"Flew" or "Raised" a flag would be more correct. I understood "Flied".

I understand their decision, my money has to go where it does productive work too!

I too like Ilford's stuff and intend to shoot it the rest of my life.

P C Headland · Sep 29, 2008

Thanks for the report. It's great, especially considering the impracticalities for some of us to pop over for a day !!

AgX · Sep 29, 2008

Henning,

all you have been shown are fruits seeded in the past.

Future may either be coating and marketing that what is on the market now (as long it is profitable),
or... going further with improved products.

Seen the long time span from initial research to a product in the market and the costs involved, decisions have to be made now.
That research issue is overlooked at Apug again and again.

Sorry, for being a kill-joy.

bnstein · Sep 29, 2008

Henning

having looked for some reports on photokina all I could find were those covering the latest digital products plus a brief mention of the new kodak film so it was a great pleasure to see your excellent summary. Many thanks

Henning Serger · Sep 29, 2008

Hello AgX,

AgX said:
Henning,

all you have been shown are fruits seeded in the past.

So what? Of course, that is always the case. Look at cars, digital cameras, airplanes, what you like.

AgX said:
Seen the long time span from initial research to a product in the market and the costs involved, decisions have to be made now.

Kodak introduced Portra 400 NC-2/VC-2 in 2006. Only eighteen months later they presented the improved version 400 NC-3/VC-3.
If I had told you last summer, that Kodak will bring a new Portra to market,
you would have said I'm totally crazy.
If I had told you last summer, that Kodak will present a new TMY, a new product in the tiny niche market BW film, you would have said I'm totally crazy. But Kodak did, the film is a success, increasing sales.
If I had told you this summer, Kodak will present a new Ektar film, you would have said I'm totally crazy.
If I had told you last autumn, Fuji will introduce a new folder camera, you would......
We can continue the list.

Most of the new or resurrected products which hit the market in the last two years seem to be impossible. At least concerning to the "experts" here on apug.
And most of the new products have succes on the market. Therefore it makes sense to continue R&D. I think Kodak and Fuji (and AG) have realised that.

In the last two years Kodak introduced 11 (!) new or improved films: Portra 160 NC-2, 160 VC-2, 400 NC-2, 400 VC-2, Portra 800 version 3, improved Gold 200 and Gold 400, Portra 400 NC-3 and Portra 400 VC-3, TMY-2, Ektar 100.

I grew up in in the "golden analogue days". But I can't remenber a time in the past, when Kodak introduced 11 Films in only two years. Please correct me if I am wrong.
Look back at summer 2006: Anyone here on apug who thougt that Kodak will bring 11 new films to the market in the next two years?
No, quite the opposite: The apug experts talked about Kodak leaving the film market.
Anyone here on apug who thougt we will see Velvia 50 back on the shelves?

My personal conclusion: I speak directly to the people who are currently working in the industry (because from time to time I am working there as well).

By the way, the decision for new production runs at Agfa-Gevaert were made recently (and even there R&D was necessary for these new runs due to different coating machines). Very short time frames.

Best regards,
Henning

Alex Bishop-Thorpe · Sep 29, 2008

Looking for Photokina reports the best I got were some mentions of Kodak's new film, the rest was all new D-SLRS and (depressingly enough) even a few new camera phones. Thank you very much for the comprehensive report and your service to our community.

David Brown · Sep 29, 2008

Yeeee - Haaawwww ....

(Sorry for my bad English. I am Texan.)

nostalgix · Sep 29, 2008

Thanks again, Henning. The translated version is almost as good as the original one.

AgX · Sep 29, 2008

Henning,

I was hinting at basic research, not at results of transferring motion picture achievements into still photography. That Kodak Two-Electron-Sensitization thing is not something achieved within the last three or four years.

That introduction of 11 new films shows that Kodak considers the still photo market as profitable enough to justify improvements and is seen by me that they want to avoid loosing that hard core of analog users. But that profitability can change due to circumstances outside the still photography community.

My post was intended as a warning to draw rash conclusions from the fine situation of today.

Thank you for posting that Agfa information.

Henning Serger · Sep 29, 2008

AgX said:
Henning,

I was hinting at basic research, not at results of transferring motion picture achievements into still photography. That Kodak Two-Electron-Sensitization thing is not something achieved within the last three or four years.

AgX, do we really exactly know, that in the Portra version 3 or the new Ektar "only" Two-Electron-Sensitization is implemented? No, we don't know exactly.
Kodak is clever enough to keep their secrets. And they won't give any secrets to retired employees.
The Two-Electron-Sensitization was said to be implemented already in the Portra version 2 in 2006.

In the end, it doesn't matter. For the photographer it is only important, that the new film is better than the old one. And Portra 400 NC/VC-3 is better than the version 2.
And Ektar 100 of 2008 has much finer grain than Portra 160 NC-2 of 2006.
Therefore I think it is not unlikely, that Kodak has made some progress in technology recently in the past two years.

AgX said:
My post was intended as a warning to draw rash conclusions from the fine situation of today.

We all know that the market situation is very hard for all manufacturers. The transformation to a stable niche market (niche relative to digital) is not fully completed yet. But we see first signs of stabilisation in parts of the market. And I think there is a good chance for a stable market in the future, with a combination of product improvements and clever marketing strategies (this opinion is based on scientific market research I am involved in).

Best regards,
Henning

AutumnJazz · Sep 29, 2008

Thank you for that report! I've been trying to find analog info, but all the "photokina" sites seem purely focused on the digital.

And as a 16 year old, I have to say that I love film. I have friends taking photo classes, they're forced to use film, and they like it. (I'm also about to invest a ton of money in a range finder setup, enough that I could probably get a decent full-frame DSLR. I think that says something, no?)

I think the only thing people don't really like about Lomography is that they sell $20 cameras for $120...

Sal Santamaura · Sep 29, 2008

Henning Serger said:
...Fotoimpex...promised to try to make MCC next year...

Henning, Mirko hasn't posted updates here recently, but the Web site

http://www.adox.de/english/ADOX_Papers/ADOX_Papers.html

still says MCC 111 will be coated late this year. Did you get the impression that has changed?

Mirko -- any comment?

Simon R Galley · Sep 29, 2008

Dear Henning,

Good report : All of us from HARMAN were indeed in Cologne:

The reason for us not exhibiting was very simple, last PHOTOKINA we spent a very large part of the annual
marketing budget on PHOTOKINA.....and virtually no 'new' customers came, the show has changed out of all recognition to even 2002 / 2004 : We used to see thousands of 'end users', two years ago we met about 600 that works out at over 200 Euro's per customer contact ! We do of course see all our Worldwide distributors,but this we did anyway as we had a meeting venue near the Messe... also the exhibition itself is not structured toward traditional products, its promoted now as the digital show. Numbers of course are also much lower but exhibiting costs are higher. As to new distributors, we know everyone who seriously trades in monochrome.

Its true we could have 'downsized' ...the problem is we have a maxim, if its worth doing its worth doing well, we looked at a stand 50% of the size and the cost saving was only about 25% ... going to a very small booth is not an option for us.

We will indeed reconsider next PHOTOKINA especially if they had an analog hall or even an art hall...

We will continue to exhibit at shows where we can meet our customers face to face and make a difference, at shows such as Photoplus in New York ( I am actually going this year! ) and FOCUS on Imaging in the UK ( 30,000 end users in 4 days this year! ).

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

gr82bart · Sep 29, 2008

Henning Serger said:
Hello,

I attended the Photokina photo fair in Cologne, Germany, last week (professional) and want to give you a short report about some important facts concerning film (Photokina is the world biggest photo fair).

What a great review! Thanks so much for posting this.

Lomo: The Lomographic Society was the great surprise on this years photokina. They had two (!) very big boothes, much bigger than most of the boothes of digital companies. The complete ground of both boothes was covered with real color prints, all of them lomo pictures, overall more than 100.000!! They needed some days for gluing these pictures side by side by hand.
Their biggest booth was on the boulevard between two great halls, at a strategic point, because all visitors had to pass by, see the booth and the very big logo above: “the future is analogue”. Very lovely to read such a statement at a digital dominated fair.
They held lots of workshops every day to teach photographers the art of lomography. Very interesting: They addressed these workshops especially at very young people (in the 16 – 25 year old range). And the young (often grown up only with digital photography) were interested!! There booth was full with visitors. They sold lots of Holgas , Dianas and Lomos.
They told me that their business growth rates were 50% p.a. in the last years! Even if you don’t like this photography concept, you have to admit it is very good for film, because young people or digital photographers get in touch with film.

I can see the Lomo haters having a fit over this one. Haters only hate, nothing else. Hehehe ...

Regards, Art.

Henning Serger · Sep 29, 2008

Sal Santamaura said:
Henning, Mirko hasn't posted updates here recently, but the Web site

http://www.adox.de/english/ADOX_Papers/ADOX_Papers.html

still says MCC 111 will be coated late this year. Did you get the impression that has changed?

Mirko -- any comment?

Sal,

at their booth they told me next year. The problem is that it is fibre base paper. If you coat that, you need a very intensive cleaning of the coating machine afterwards. And Agfa Gevaert don't want to do that. They are happy to coat only "clean" PE (paper) and PET (films) which are unproblematic.
Therefore the plan is to coat MCC at Inoviscoat (that is the engineering company of former Agfa engineers who starts this project, they make the emulsion). But their coating machine was still under construction this summer (they moved it from Leverkusen to Monheim).

Best regards,
Henning

David A. Goldfarb · Sep 29, 2008

Simon R Galley said:
We will continue to exhibit at shows where we can meet our customers face to face and make a difference, at shows such as Photoplus in New York ( I am actually going this year! )

Now this might give me a reason to attend this year. Presuming I'll be in town, see you in New York, Simon!

Simon R Galley · Sep 29, 2008

Dear David,

Any APUGGERs will be most welcome on our stand, I will be there the whole period.......

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technologfy Limited

Photokina: Positive news for film

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