Photogravure questions

Christian Olivet · Jan 9, 2005

I just want to add a little bit to this since I have just finished a Photogravure workshop with Lothar Osterberg here in Maui. There is a lot to learn and I do not recommend to anyone to try to learn by themselves. The workshop was taught for 4 days. On the first day we looked at prints and made some positives for exposure. The second day we finished the positives and sensitized the gelatins. The third day we exposed and developed the gelatins and on the fourth we etched and printed.
I think the trickiest part is the etching of the copper plate and if anything goes wrong here, you loose a lot of print information if not all of it. The other and very iimportantthing to know is how to ink a plate for intaglio printing. No reading can help you there. You have to see someone experienced doing it and guide you through it, but after that is really quite simple and no extremely critical.
If you take a workshop and have access to a print studio nearby, I say go for it. It is worth it all by itself regardless of wether you continue making prints on your own or not.
By the way look at my print in the regular gallery I just uploaded. I made 5 prints with different ink combinations and think that this one works best.

squinonescolon · Jan 17, 2005

Hi Guys,
I'll tell you guys about my costs but first let me ask Keith Taylor that he comes clean and tells us the process he used for the Gum prints he made for DeCosse , those are beautiful prints and I have yet to be able to get anything like that out of my gum printing, we beg of you!

These are my cost right now. These include, the copper plate,the carbon tissue G35 from Autotype, the chemicals (sensitizer,alcohol,and cleaning solutions), paper and ink. This is what it costs to pull 2 test etchings an 1 final etched plate. I start with 18 Gauge economy copper and etch the tests on both sides, then for the final plate I move up to 16 gauge mirror finish copper. From then on your costs drop dramatically to just paper and ink.

Copper Plate photogravure with traditional negative and digital screen.
$40.50 sq.ft.

Polymer Gravure plates (Printight) ---1 test---
$9.51 sq. ft.

ImaGon Polymer Gravure film ---1 test---
1.31 sq. ft

Currently I'm experimenting with the Precision Digital Negatives from Mark Nelson, you can get his book here http://precisiondigitalnegatives.com/. If everything goes as well as it seems so far in the testing I should be able to get rid of the initial testing period and just do a final gravure.

At any rate, I usually do other tests to make sure I want to do the image in gravure. I use ImagOn to do my very first test. I want to make sure The image works good for me and I have to see something similar to the final piece without spending the time. Traditional gravure typically takes a minimum of three days but more typically a week and I want to make sure I have a worthy image before I go ahead with the process.

The ImaGon is a non-etch polymer film and you can process and start printing in about 30 minutes. That will give me and idea of how I want to proceed. I'll live with the print for a couple of days. If I decide to go on I'll make one test on polymer plate. These are very close to the final look and take even shorter to process but are more expensive. I'll live with this print for more than a week and I'll have several of these prints in my studio at any one time. Once I make a decision to go ahead it's a matter of time and being patient and letting the image slowly develop.

All the steps of gravure are very subjective and you can have a myriad of variations and ways of approaching the plate. Both etching and printing are very zen like and make up most of the fun that can be had with the process. So from beginning to end it could be more than a month to produce one image. But this is my working method. You can work much faster if you like.

My picture taking is very similar in that I only take one or two 4x5 negatives in a specific place. Typically I go out and scout the location at come back to it at different times of the day and see how the light changes and think about it for a while. I usually have several images like this in my head for weeks at a time and then when the weatheris ripe, over a weekend or two I make all my exposures for the next couple of months then I work in my studio when there is no weather (meaning no storms) in the SF. Bay area. So all the work happens with the seasons.
Best regards,
Steven

Keith Taylor · Jan 17, 2005

squinonescolon said:
Hi Guys,
I'll tell you guys about my costs but first let me ask Keith Taylor that he comes clean and tells us the process he used for the Gum prints he made for DeCosse , those are beautiful prints and I have yet to be able to get anything like that out of my gum printing, we beg of you!

Hi Steven,
As I mentioned in an earlier post, for my alternative prints I'm using digital negs, both from an inkjet and an imagesetter. For the gum prints, they are solely imagesetter negs. however.
In Photoshop, after editing I split the channels to get the three grayscale files. The RGB files are renamed CMY - I don't work with a black separation. The images are all printed on Fabriano Artistico, with a single coating of each colour in the order Y,M,C. I use a 15% Potassium Dichromate solution with Daniel Smith's gum arabic. The colours I use are also mainly from DS. Cadmium Yellow Deep and Pthalo Blue. The magenta is Sennelier Bright Red.
Hope that helps!
Keith.

Gustavo_Castilla · Jan 17, 2005

Alt photo

I think Ralph make a good point do you want to make many prints?
you could go to http://www.alternativephotography.com/
to get some Ideas

Lasse Mellberg · Jan 25, 2005

Copperphotogravure

I was planning a book with photogravures 1987 and started to learn
the photogravureprocess and I still are learning after 17 years.( The
book had been done but in offset.)
Copperphotogravure is a technique which are very special and all the photo-
gravurists I had read about or meet does work in differences ways. I think
the best way to learn is to go to a workshop or been working together
with somebody whos practice it. It is very much Zen around the lovely process, and the etching is the most difficult/amazing in the process
I run a course every year 34 weeks on biskops arno folkhighschool and
the biggest part of the course is copperphotogravure and gumdichromate.
To get nice gravures it´s important to be a skillfull printmaker.
But it is a lovely process.
Some of my students and I are also represented on
www.alternativephotography.com. There is also one of the descriptions
of the process. Today we use specialmade screens for the process.
One of my friends had done a fantastic work about the Photogravure-
process and if everything is going well it is published during this year.
It is also a dvd film showing the process.
The work is about all known variations in the process,
also in diffrent ways of colurseparation.
I tell you on this site when it is published.

Have just come home from the workshop there the students during the day had done the transfering of the pigment paper and tomorrow we do the etching.
Sometimes when i walk home after a etchingday and it had been good
results I look at the stars in the winterdark swedish sky, I just feel
like somebody is holding his hand over me and let me work with this
amazing process!!!

Lasse

gandolfi · Jan 28, 2005

photo polymer?

have you tried or heard of photo polymer gravure?
it is quite similat to the old process, but it is quick - and non toxic.
you can make a printing plate in an hour...

modafoto · Jan 28, 2005

Lasse Mellberg said:
Some of my students and I are also represented on
www.alternativephotography.com. There is also one of the descriptions
of the process.

This guy inspired me to get into polymer gravure.
http://www.alternativephotography.com/artists/kurt_nissen.html

gandolfi · Jan 30, 2005

Kurt?

kurt inspired you?

as far as I can see (and know) he havn't made one single gravure.......

(polymer gravure: yes - not Gravure, as there is a huge difference)

by the way: I am currently holding an exhibition in Herning Photo museum with him (and others) - no gravures, but a lot of polymer....

OOUUUPS: SORRY: I didn't read proberly! you DID say polymer gravure, so forget most of what I said....

Jack R. · Feb 1, 2005

squinonescolon said:
Hi Guys, ....

Currently I'm experimenting with the Precision Digital Negatives from Mark Nelson, you can get his book here http://precisiondigitalnegatives.com/. If everything goes as well as it seems so far in the testing I should be able to get rid of the initial testing period and just do a final gravure.

Best regards,
Steven

Hello Steven,

I have been working in copper plate photogravure for a few years now (so I am just a beginner!). I am struggling with proper curves and exposure times for digital positives, and am very interested to hear that you are using Mark Nelson's book. I have considered it, but was unsure if it would apply to the making of digital positives for photogravure. Have you found it to be as useful as advertised? Is it more useful than Burkholder's book? I like his book, but I have not been able to apply it easily to the production of positives for photogravure.

Regards, Jack

kamprint · Mar 20, 2005

Jack R. said:
Hello Steven,

I have been working in copper plate photogravure for a few years now (so I am just a beginner!). I am struggling with proper curves and exposure times for digital positives, and am very interested to hear that you are using Mark Nelson's book. I have considered it, but was unsure if it would apply to the making of digital positives for photogravure. Have you found it to be as useful as advertised? Is it more useful than Burkholder's book? I like his book, but I have not been able to apply it easily to the production of positives for photogravure.

Regards, Jack

I am not familiar with this book, but I have found that digital positives made with the newest high-resolution printers and transparency materials work as well as film for photogravure. You can measure the densities of digital positives -- assuming they are made with pigmented ink -- the same way you measure film densities. As with film positives, there is some latitude in the exposure, in that slight over-exposure can be compensated with less resist drying time before etching, and slight under-exposure can be compensated by hardening the resist more with alcohol and/or waiting a longer time until etching. All the variables are inter-related. After a while you don't need the curves and calculations anymore, you develop a sense of what's right for each image.

jp80874 · Mar 20, 2005

Dave,

Congratulations. You have stirred up a lot of interest with this topic. Additional sources for practical working information that you might explore are the local art museums and colleges with fine art programs. Ive retired and in the last two
years taken six b&w photography courses at the local (Akron, OH) universitys
fine Art school. These have led to building my own darkroom and three additional
workshops in platinum printing.

In the first session of summer school (early May-mid June) I will be taking a five
week photogravure course. As I understand it they will meet five days a week
from 9-noon. The professor Charles Beneke has an exhibit running in Cleveland
now and has given workshops at colleges and museums in several other states.

I dont suggest moving from SF to beautiful Akron, OH. I do suggest that if a
little backwater like this has such interesting programs there must be something
much better going on in your area that you just havent found yet. The beautiful
thing about Ohio is that residents over 60 get to take these courses for the
price of lab fees and parking permits. On average that saves about $850 a
course.

Enjoy,

John Powers
Downtown, Bath, OH

modafoto · Mar 20, 2005

gandolfi said:
By the way: I am currently holding an exhibition in Herning Photo museum with him (and others) - no gravures, but a lot of polymer....

I was there some weeks ago. Great work! Your wall was amazing. nice feature with all the small frames

I am member of AFA and know Bo L. Sørensen well. I has been trying to get me into cyanotypes, but I am more interested in polymer gravure.

dima · May 19, 2005

Screens

Hi there!
All the information on the web concerning aquatint screens lacks tech specs.
So does anybody know where to obtain the screens of highest quality that would hold finest detail? Or is it possible to output them? If yes, then how?
By the way, did anybody have a problems with moire when applying the screen to the image in photoshop?

Dima.

nick mulder · Nov 6, 2005

I tried a photo-ploymer gravure yesterday from a digital transparency - I can see the individual drops bursts of ink from the inkjet are still intact in the final product - much more detail than I thought ...

If I wanted to make proper +ve's in say 8x10 size blown up from enlarged (and cropped) 6x7 MF negs is there a proper (slower?) type that does this or do i simply order yer 'standard' 8x10 neg stock ?

donbga · Nov 6, 2005

photoguy said:
I live in the San Francisco area, and would love to hear from others nearby if they have any info. or links that would help-

Thanks!

Dave

I can't recall the name but I believe there is a group in the Frisco area that sponsors workshops for Photo Gravure an intaglio printing.

Here is one link I just found you maybe interested in.

http://www.goldstreetstudios.com.au/DavidRoberts.htm

Apparently he does workshops and is slanted towards photographers that shot with ULF cameras.

Don Bryant

donbga · Nov 6, 2005

donbga said:
I can't recall the name but I believe there is a group in the Frisco area that sponsors workshops for Photo Gravure an intaglio printing.

Here is one link I just found you maybe interested in.

http://www.goldstreetstudios.com.au/DavidRoberts.htm

Apparently he does workshops and is slanted towards photographers that shot with ULF cameras.

Don Bryant

Ooops looks like he does the ULF workshop only not the gravure workshop as I intially thought.

Don BRyant

phfitz · Nov 6, 2005

Hi there,

Wasn't there a process called 'Woodbury"? that was very similar to cooper photogravure but used lead plates? This would make for truly limited run for each print.

Just a vague memory

Jim Noel · Nov 7, 2005

An alternate process which produces almost identical prints is the Solar Plate. It still requires a good press, but chemistry is not daunting.

stormbytes · Dec 1, 2005

jovo said:
If you're ever in NYC, the John Stevenson Gallery has some absolutely stunning photogravures by Cy DeCosse. Several such works can be seen here: ( http://www.artbooks.de/21st/21st-vol4-1.html ), but they don't even begin to convey the beauty of this work. That gallery (Stevenson) is a good place to view lots of alternate process work as well.

As stated above, photogravure is an excellent technic for duplicating, with great consistancy, multiple 'pulls' from one negative.

I live in NYC and would love to visit the gallery. Any address info?

Cheers
Daniel

Ole · Dec 2, 2005

phfitz said:
Hi there,

Wasn't there a process called 'Woodbury"? that was very similar to cooper photogravure but used lead plates? This would make for truly limited run for each print.

Just a vague memory

I think the Woodburytype was the one where the negative, developed in a staining/tanning developer, was used as a mould? A block of lead was pressed onto the actual negative, taking shape from the surface of the emulsion. That lead block was then used to make prints using coloured gelatin . Since the darker parts of the negative stain/tan more heavily, they form thin (physically thin, not optically) spots in the emulsion. Lighter areas stand up. So the lead block would have dips where the negative was light, giving room for more of the coloured gelatin - thus darker in print.

Ingenious method - grainless prints!

sanking · Dec 2, 2005

Ole,

You have that fairly confused. In woodburytype a regular negative is used in conjunction with special carbon tissue to make a very high gelatin relief. The relief, when dried, is pressed into a lead mould under great pressure to make a relief on the lead. The lead serves as the printing plate.

To make the print warm pigmented gelatin is spread over the printing plate. When the pigmented gelaitn sets it is transfered to a sheet of paper.

The result is a continuos tone print that has the same look and physcial characteristics of a carbon print.

Sandy

Ole said:
I think the Woodburytype was the one where the negative, developed in a staining/tanning developer, was used as a mould? A block of lead was pressed onto the actual negative, taking shape from the surface of the emulsion. That lead block was then used to make prints using coloured gelatin . Since the darker parts of the negative stain/tan more heavily, they form thin (physically thin, not optically) spots in the emulsion. Lighter areas stand up. So the lead block would have dips where the negative was light, giving room for more of the coloured gelatin - thus darker in print.

Ingenious method - grainless prints!

phfitz · Dec 2, 2005

Hi there,

Ole and Sandy, thank you both. Totally grainless and Limited Edition.

Let the holidays begin.

reggie · Aug 28, 2007

kamprint said:
In response to the questions about the cost per photogravure print: The ultraviolet light source with vacuum frame (Richmond Graphic makes a good one) costs $2,000, the etching press (Ettan Press makes an excellent press) costs another $2,000, though cheaper used models are sometimes available. The unit costs of the materials (copperplates, etching inks, etching papers, chemicals, etc.) are not much if purchased in quantity. If all goes well, the platemaking, etching, and edition printing can be completed in a week or two, sometimes more. Having taken the considerable amount of time to etch the plate, it would not make sense to print only one impression; the costs can only be calculated on the basis of the entire edition. These costs are naturally far greater than for silver photography. Lenswork was engaging in philanthropy when it sold photogravure prints below cost, which is why that arrangement was unsustainable.

Some of the chemicals used in photogravure are toxic, but perfectly safe to use if you don't drink them or splash them on clothing or skin. The less toxic photopolymer techniques are easier and faster, but without etching it is impossible to get the depth and range of tonality that occurs only in photogravure.

In the SF Bay Area, Crown Point Press and Kala have workshops in photogravure, as do Osterburg in New York and others elsewhere.

Detailed technical information on photogravure is available at my website www.kamprint.com along with Web versions of my gravures, and gallery and dealer contacts for those who wish to purchase them. I will be conducting a photogravure workshop July 28-30, 2005 in Gubbio Italy. Information on that as well as seven other workshops in Italy is at www.kamprint.com/paese.html. (The cost info is in Yen, for residents of Japan, but US and European residents can pay in Euros.) Questions welcome.

Cheers, & happy new year,

Hi:

I wonder if we could get a more up to date revision of this very useful information on photogravure. I'm especially curious about the etching press - where to get them and how much are they. I'm personally more interested in buying new and $2k is very affordable for me, or anynear close to that. I already have a UV lightsource and a vaccum frame. I know Bostick & Sullivan sell carbon tissue (but it is pretty expensive - hey so what).

How about workshops? What kind of paper do you print on? Do thin hard papers work or thicker softer papers so the ink will soak in. I would think that if a press could exert enough pressure, it could get the ink into thinner harder papers and there would be less bleeding. I'm just guessing.

Any info woul be appreciated.

-R

donbga · Aug 28, 2007

reggie said:
Hi:

I wonder if we could get a more up to date revision of this very useful information on photogravure. I'm especially curious about the etching press - where to get them and how much are they. I'm personally more interested in buying new and $2k is very affordable for me, or anynear close to that. I already have a UV lightsource and a vaccum frame. I know Bostick & Sullivan sell carbon tissue (but it is pretty expensive - hey so what).

How about workshops? What kind of paper do you print on? Do thin hard papers work or thicker softer papers so the ink will soak in. I would think that if a press could exert enough pressure, it could get the ink into thinner harder papers and there would be less bleeding. I'm just guessing.

Any info woul be appreciated.

-R

These links may help:

http://www.jgoodgravure.com/

http://www.renaissancepress.com/

http://www.newgroundsprintshop.com/phiclass.htm

Dead Link Removed

Mateo · Aug 28, 2007

Hey if money is no object, check these out Dead Link Removed

and while you're at it get me one too but you better order soon or we won't have them in time for next summer.

Photogravure questions

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