Photogravure questions

photoguy · Nov 19, 2004

After many years of traditional shooting / printing (6x6, 4x5) I'm intersted in trying the Photogravure process.

My questions are:

What is an approximate cost for materials to produce a print? (16x20 or so)
How long does it take to complete a print?
Are the chemicals used very toxic?

I've looked here and searched on the web, and can't seem to find answers to these specific questions. I'm just trying to get some idea of what this would cost and take in time.

I live in the San Francisco area, and would love to hear from others nearby if they have any info. or links that would help-

Thanks!

Dave

mikewhi · Nov 19, 2004

One thing you might try is contacting Brooks Jensen at LensWork. They have done this in the past. I own a photogravure of John Whimberley's "Descending Angel" tha I'm pretty sure they produced. I believe Brooks knows a lot about the process and equipment and could give you a ballpark on the investment. If you find out anything, please post it here. I've always been curious, but never seriously intersted in getting into it. I think the floorspace required would be a problem for me.

-Mike

Mateo · Nov 19, 2004

Do you have an etching press and experience etching, aquatint or other intaglio processes? I'm working up to photogravure but don't have a press right now.

photoguy · Nov 19, 2004

Mateo said:
Do you have an etching press and experience etching, aquatint or other intaglio processes? I'm working up to photogravure but don't have a press right now.

No, just printed traditional silver so far.

I saw a photogravure recently and it just knocked my socks off. It was done on warm paper, beautiful tones, soft and contrasty all at the same time.

From what I've been able to find out about it, there are many steps involved, very time consuming, I would imagine not very inexpensive (but not sure on that). Also you need a large press of sorts to complete the final step.

Since ther aren't many resources that I can find, I'm assuming it's not done much these days. I'm not planning on doing this in my home- I'd like to find a workshop or class to learn how to do it.

photomc · Nov 19, 2004

I think Mike is correct to contact Brooks Jensen, I don't recall the guys name that was doing them for Lenswork, but he has gone off on his own (which is one reason they don't have them any longer - I think). Sorry I don't recall his name, but he had a good description on his website of the process. Point over to Lenswork and see if they can help, - then let us know what you find.

photoguy · Nov 19, 2004

photomc said:
I think Mike is correct to contact Brooks Jensen, I don't recall the guys name that was doing them for Lenswork, but he has gone off on his own (which is one reason they don't have them any longer - I think). Sorry I don't recall his name, but he had a good description on his website of the process. Point over to Lenswork and see if they can help, - then let us know what you find.

Actually I just read about this 20 minutes ago! His name is Russ Dodd, and he was doing the Lens Work images, but now has chosen to move on to smaller projects. He works at Working Theory Press.

I can find short descriptions of the process, just no mention of costs or time involved to make a print. I found one place in Berkeley called Kala Art Institute that does a workshop once a year or so, I might try that one.

clay · Nov 19, 2004

Earlier this year, I had Russ Dodd make a small edition set of gravure prints from a palladium print of mine, and I have to say that his work is fantastic.
www.workingtheory.com

SusanV · Nov 20, 2004

You could start by reading the excellent book " Copper Plate Photogravure: Demystifying The Process", by David Morrish. Also google "solar plate photogravure" for info about a similar, but less toxic type of gravure. There is a member here on APUG making photogravures, whose work i have seen in the gallery. His name is Lasse Mellberg and the work is in the "Experimental" gallery.

It's a very involved process, and you need the use of an intaglio press ( and you have to know how to use it to pull a print ). It's a discipline that requires photographic skills AND intaglio printmaking skills, but the results can be spectacular. Good luck!

Susan

photomc · Nov 20, 2004

Sure many looking at the process have found this link but for those that have not...

http://www.kamprint.com/printmak.htm

rbarker · Nov 20, 2004

Another question to consider, I think, is whether the process is being used to produce moderate numbers of prints from the same negative with high consistency between prints vs. individual prints as an alternate process.

Photogravure has always struck me as being an excellent alternative for the former, rather than the latter. I'm not sure I'd see it as a subsitute for original silver (or alt process) prints, however.

mobtown_4x5 · Nov 20, 2004

Holy time-consuming batman! Wow- my hat is off to anyone who puts that much work into something- I would love to see one of these in person.

jovo · Nov 20, 2004

mobtown_4x5 said:
Holy time-consuming batman! Wow- my hat is off to anyone who puts that much work into something- I would love to see one of these in person.

If you're ever in NYC, the John Stevenson Gallery has some absolutely stunning photogravures by Cy DeCosse. Several such works can be seen here: ( http://www.artbooks.de/21st/21st-vol4-1.html ), but they don't even begin to convey the beauty of this work. That gallery (Stevenson) is a good place to view lots of alternate process work as well.

As stated above, photogravure is an excellent technic for duplicating, with great consistancy, multiple 'pulls' from one negative.

photoguy · Nov 20, 2004

rbarker said:
Another question to consider, I think, is whether the process is being used to produce moderate numbers of prints from the same negative with high consistency between prints vs. individual prints as an alternate process.

Photogravure has always struck me as being an excellent alternative for the former, rather than the latter. I'm not sure I'd see it as a subsitute for original silver (or alt process) prints, however.

I don't see this process at all as replacing silver printing, as it is much more involved I'm sure. I just wanted to try a new process, make a few prints of them, just for the experience and fun of it-

N O Mennescio · Nov 20, 2004

Photoguy,
I participated in a workshop some years ago. And I would strongly recommend you take one to. IMO this is NOT something you would want to do on your own without prior knowlege to the process.

photomc · Nov 23, 2004

Just in case anyone is interested got an email today from Photographers Formulary, they will be having a workshop July 3-8 of 2005 on Copper Plate Photogravure by Lothar Osterburg.

photoguy · Nov 24, 2004

photomc said:
Just in case anyone is interested got an email today from Photographers Formulary, they will be having a workshop July 3-8 of 2005 on Copper Plate Photogravure by Lothar Osterburg.

I found a workshop also in Berkeley, Ca. that is also 5 days (30 hrs.). Kala Art Institute offers it once a year.

I thought spending 8 hrs. in the darkroom to prouduce a print was a long time!

Landrum · Nov 24, 2004

Gary Kolb wrote the bible on photogravure, he was one of my professors at Southern Illinois University Carbondale. This is the traditional way of making them. The newer book that was described above uses the new aquatint plates, I think, don't kill me if I'm wrong. I saw the book on the web many many months ago and read about it, but apparently wasn't yet available.

Heres a link to the Kolb book, I guess it's out of print. Lucky me I have one.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...f=sr_1_2/104-2766155-9042358?v=glance&s=books

Greg

Peter Schrager · Nov 24, 2004

Photgravure Book

Abebooks has the title above/same book for 24.95. The link at Amazon.com is asking $500 (?) Duh?
Regards Peter

kamprint · Dec 31, 2004

In response to the questions about the cost per photogravure print: The ultraviolet light source with vacuum frame (Richmond Graphic makes a good one) costs $2,000, the etching press (Ettan Press makes an excellent press) costs another $2,000, though cheaper used models are sometimes available. The unit costs of the materials (copperplates, etching inks, etching papers, chemicals, etc.) are not much if purchased in quantity. If all goes well, the platemaking, etching, and edition printing can be completed in a week or two, sometimes more. Having taken the considerable amount of time to etch the plate, it would not make sense to print only one impression; the costs can only be calculated on the basis of the entire edition. These costs are naturally far greater than for silver photography. Lenswork was engaging in philanthropy when it sold photogravure prints below cost, which is why that arrangement was unsustainable.

Some of the chemicals used in photogravure are toxic, but perfectly safe to use if you don't drink them or splash them on clothing or skin. The less toxic photopolymer techniques are easier and faster, but without etching it is impossible to get the depth and range of tonality that occurs only in photogravure.

In the SF Bay Area, Crown Point Press and Kala have workshops in photogravure, as do Osterburg in New York and others elsewhere.

Detailed technical information on photogravure is available at my website www.kamprint.com along with Web versions of my gravures, and gallery and dealer contacts for those who wish to purchase them. I will be conducting a photogravure workshop July 28-30, 2005 in Gubbio Italy. Information on that as well as seven other workshops in Italy is at www.kamprint.com/paese.html. (The cost info is in Yen, for residents of Japan, but US and European residents can pay in Euros.) Questions welcome.

Cheers, & happy new year,

roy · Dec 31, 2004

jovo said:
If you're ever in NYC, the John Stevenson Gallery has some absolutely stunning photogravures by Cy DeCosse. Several such works can be seen here: ( http://www.artbooks.de/21st/21st-vol4-1.html ), but they don't even begin to convey the beauty of this work.

I have often admired his work but it has taken you to draw my attention to the fact that they are photogravures. Certainly something to use as a benchmark for somebody interested in the process.

Click to expand...

Keith Taylor · Jan 3, 2005

jovo said:
If you're ever in NYC, the John Stevenson Gallery has some absolutely stunning photogravures by Cy DeCosse. Several such works can be seen here: ( http://www.artbooks.de/21st/21st-vol4-1.html ), but they don't even begin to convey the beauty of this work. That gallery (Stevenson) is a good place to view lots of alternate process work as well.

Hi,

My name is Keith Taylor, and I print for Cy DeCosse, so I appreciate the remarks!

These photogravures were made using photopolymer plates instead of the traditional copperplate method. There are plenty of online resources for this material, but the best book I found was "Polymer Photogravure - A New Method For Photographers and Graphic Artists." The authors are Taneli Eskola and Kari Holopainen, and I found my copy through PhotoEye in Santa Fe.

The gravures for Cy were for an edition of portfolios; 25 portfolios, each containing 12 images. My background is as a commercial printer, specialising in the alternative processes of platinum and three colour gum-dichromate, but prior to this portfolio, I had no etching/printmaking background whatsoever.

The hardest part for me was obtaining the correct density and contrast for the analogue film positives that you need for gravure. Although in the three years since then, I've moved over to digital for making all contact negatives for platinum and gum. I can only imagine that this would simplify things even further.

These materials and techniques offer opportunities for photographers to work in photogravure without the previously high startup costs (aside from access to a press) and the health hazard factor.

Thanks,

Keith.

Keith Taylor · Jan 3, 2005

If you're ever in NYC, the John Stevenson Gallery has some absolutely stunning photogravures by Cy DeCosse. Several such works can be seen here: ( http://www.artbooks.de/21st/21st-vol4-1.html ), but they don't even begin to convey the beauty of this work.

I have often admired his work but it has taken you to draw my attention to the fact that they are photogravures. Certainly something to use as a benchmark for somebody interested in the process.

Hello again,

They're not all photogravure, only the portfolio. The majority of Cy's work is still in platinum. Currently, Cy has a show of three-color gum dichromate prints at John Stevenson's gallery.
Dead Link Removed

Regards,
Keith.

kamprint · Jan 3, 2005

Photogravure

The DeCosse prints are exquisite on-line and must be even moreso live.

But the essence of photogravure is etching, as this is the only way to get the profoundly variable depth of ink and tonality that is characteristic of the medium. It was clever of the inventors to attach the word 'gravure' to 'polymer', but the actual meaning of gravure is etching. Polymer can also deliver fine results, saving a few processing steps, but it would be helpful to use clear terminology so that collectors and others are not confused.

Etching with ferric chloride carries virtually no health risk, contrary to some much-publicized opinion. The real health risks are in the sensitizer and the ultraviolet light, which are common to all plate exposure processes. With proper precautions these present no problem.

On the question of proper density for analog positive films: The short answer is between 0.2 and 1.8 if you have a densitometer. Eyeballing it, the basic idea is to place ALL the tones on the straight-line part of the sensitivity curve, to preserve shadow and highlight detail. On the 'toe' and 'shoulder' of the sensitivity curve, the tones dissolve to pure black and pure white respectively. So the positive film should look less contrasty than you want the photogravure print to look. Then you bring the contrast back in the etching. This is one of many reasons why etching is so important -- without it you lose the near-whites and near-blacks and a lot of interesting detail on the edge of visibility. More details at www.kamprint.com and many more details in Gary Kolb's book which was mentioned in this thread.

Digital positives can be substituted for film positives in photogravure, and since these tend to be less dense than film, the problem of excessive density range is automatically solved.

donbga · Jan 3, 2005

kamprint said:
Polymer can also deliver fine results, saving a few processing steps, but it would be helpful to use clear terminology so that collectors and others are not confused.

I own several Photogravure prints and I happen to know they were made from metal plates. However I've seen prints made from polymer plates and have found them to be excellent. I'm not savy enough about the process to make fine distinctions about either method but I don't see why it would matter to a collector one way or another, unless perhaps a vintage print was being considered such as one made for Edward S. Curtis.

Can you explain why this distinction would be important?

Thanks,

Don Bryant

kamprint · Jan 4, 2005

donbga said:
I own several Photogravure prints and I happen to know they were made from metal plates. However I've seen prints made from polymer plates and have found them to be excellent. I'm not savy enough about the process to make fine distinctions about either method but I don't see why it would matter to a collector one way or another, unless perhaps a vintage print was being considered such as one made for Edward S. Curtis.

Can you explain why this distinction would be important?

Thanks,

Don Bryant

The difference is in the details, particularly the highlight and shadow details which can get lost in non-etch processes. The unique thing about real photogravure is the absolutely linear response of UV-sensitive materials to light together with the ability to etch each tone separately. The subtlest tonal gradations become visible, traces of snow or cloud at one end of the intensity scale, shadows within shadows at the other end. And all the midtones too. This may not matter to some collectors, that's true. It depends on the kind of images they find appealing, how closely they look, whether they will continue to find a particular image interesting after living with it for a while.

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