Photography is not a very inclusive field according to Photo Lucida's critical mass

Kyle M. · Nov 13, 2015

CatLABS said:
That was discussed in the OP articles here:
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)
Though it was generally decided by APUG (all but entirely male save for one) members there is no bias against women in the art world or elsewhere....

Unfortunately there is far more bias against women in the world we live in than 99% of men will ever admit, it is a sad situation indeed. Unfortunately if you are female and a racial minority the situation only becomes worse. I see it everyday and this is only my personal experience not the experience of others. Though if anyone tells you their experience differs I would take that information with a grain of salt, as they're most likely lying because they either don't notice or don't care. I think the situation is improving but I really don't think it will ever be perfect, most men will always have a strong belief in their superiority over women, and like I said it is a sad situation.

removed account4 · Nov 13, 2015

Kyle M. said:
Unfortunately there is far more bias against women in the world we live in than 99% of men will ever admit, it is a sad situation indeed. Unfortunately if you are female and a racial minority the situation only becomes worse. I see it everyday and this is only my personal experience not the experience of others. Though if anyone tells you their experience differs I would take that information with a grain of salt, as they're most likely lying because they either don't notice or don't care. I think the situation is improving but I really don't think it will ever be perfect, most men will always have a strong belief in their superiority over women, and like I said it is a sad situation.

couldn't agree more kyle m !

CatLABS · Nov 13, 2015

Kyle M. said:
Unfortunately there is far more bias against women in the world we live in than 99% of men will ever admit, it is a sad situation indeed. Unfortunately if you are female and a racial minority the situation only becomes worse. I see it everyday and this is only my personal experience not the experience of others. Though if anyone tells you their experience differs I would take that information with a grain of salt, as they're most likely lying because they either don't notice or don't care. I think the situation is improving but I really don't think it will ever be perfect, most men will always have a strong belief in their superiority over women, and like I said it is a sad situation.

jnanian said:
couldn't agree more kyle m !

+1

DREW WILEY · Nov 13, 2015

BS statistics as far as I'm concerned, just for the sake of bone-picking. I presume the event they're complaining about was the one in the
Northwest. Anyone familiar with the demographic stats in that part of the world would instantly recognize a parallel in representation, esp
given all the idiosyncrasies of this kind of activity. Although some of the photographs are indeed interesting, the whole digital submission
protocol and hands-off review process further skews things to either catchy journalistic-look or cute artsy gotcha imagery that translates well
over the web, versus in actual printed form on a gallery wall. Serious photography goes well beyond those adolescent boundaries.

CatLABS · Nov 13, 2015

DREW WILEY said:
BS statistics as far as I'm concerned, just for the sake of bone-picking. I presume the event they're complaining about was the one in the
Northwest. Anyone familiar with the demographic stats in that part of the world would instantly recognize a parallel in representation, esp
given all the idiosyncrasies of this kind of activity. Although some of the photographs are indeed interesting, the whole digital submission
protocol and hands-off review process further skews things to either catchy journalistic-look or cute artsy gotcha imagery that translates well
over the web, versus in actual printed form on a gallery wall. Serious photography goes well beyond those adolescent boundaries.

Are you saying no black people live in the USA or any part of it?

DREW WILEY · Nov 13, 2015

Guess you don't know much about the Northwest. But you are generating a bias of your own by suggesting a major minority is the only kind of minority. If that is the axe you want to grind and somehow infer that every single pursuit in life must be engineered according to some kind politically correct standard, it would be more relevant to ask why no native Americans were represented in the selection. It's pretty easy to sit across the country and pontificate on how other people should live. And I'm stating this as someone married to a minority who grew up in the Northwest, who did have to work twice as hard to get ahead, but who did get to the top, even if every step along the way took extra work. But that's what you do.

Truzi · Nov 13, 2015

Demographics is an important point, but research has shown it is quite common to extrapolate what one is used to onto other situations, and it also elevates the perceived representation higher than the true representation. For example, I live in the Cleveland area, and minorities are better represented here than even twenty miles away - better represented than the national averages. Many people tend to think what they are exposed to is the case everywhere (look up Availability Heuristic and other concepts).

When making comparisons and conducting studies, it is important to take this into account, as Drew points out. However, it is fairly natural and normal mistake for people unfamiliar with the concept.

Dali · Nov 13, 2015

CatLABS said:
Looking at the top 50 of this years critical mass we find:
Less then a third are women.
None are persons of color.

https://medium.com/vantage/critical-mass-top-50-not-one-african-american-6d02b6204bd5

It would be interesting (though not surprising) to read this numbers over the past several years....

And I guess whose not practicing photography (who are the majority in this country like in any other country) were not even represented...

pbromaghin · Nov 13, 2015

According to the 2010 US Census reported in the Oregon Wikipedia page, Oregon population was only 1.8% black. The Photolucida Staff, Board and Advisory Council appear to be 2/3 female.

???

MartinCrabtree · Nov 13, 2015

I do not disagree that there's a lot of unfair bias in life. However baiting people on an internet forum hardly addresses the issue. Nor does it do anything to further changing said bias. Your (OP) viewpoints and standing on this are clear and have been for quite some time.

You simply come here with controversial references and wait for someone to post something contrary so you can espouse your lofty opinion with thinly veiled insults. Could you go out and produce a photographic project that will foster people to consider their bias perhaps even change minds instead of picking fights here? Or would that require an effort beyond your desire for change? You profess to know the prevailing attitude "around here" (post #23) yet continue to do the same thing expecting different results? You do not even attempt to dissuade others from their assumed prejudices. Sarcasm and self righteousness are hardly conducive to convincing anyone to examine their behavior.

HiHoSilver · Nov 13, 2015

What Martin said.

winger · Nov 13, 2015

CatLABS said:
By all means - please prove me wrong.

I'd have to look at the thread again, but I'm pretty sure I was not the only female posting in it. And I'm really not going to bother looking through the whole thread to count the demographics. Remember that not all members use a name that could only be a particular gender.

MartinCrabtree · Nov 13, 2015

Off topic but just a little. I rarely if ever think about a poster's gender online. Winger's post made me think of that because until I read that I had no desire to know winger's gender. I spend a good amount of time on a few motorcycle sites and you'd be surprised at the makeup there.

Sirius Glass · Nov 13, 2015

I do not care what the gender of a poster is?
I do not care what the religion or lack there of a poster is?
I do not care what the race of a poster is?
I do not care what the nationality of a poster is?
Those things just to not matter to me.

Ken Nadvornick · Nov 13, 2015

I think the OP needs to get out more...

There's a much, much larger world of wonderfully diverse people, cultures, and societies out there than he seems able to either recognize or successfully interact with. When one surrounds oneself only with others who look, speak, and think exactly the same, it becomes difficult to interact with anyone else who doesn't.

When that happens a person's worldview becomes dangerously inbred. People who appear different become the enemy by default. Not because they have actively done something threatening, but simply because they represent an unknown. And five million years of evolution has instilled in each of us the basic survival instinct of a strong fear of the unknown.

The best way to overcome a debilitating fear of that unknown is to transform it into a known. Defensive insults derive from fear. The OP needs to get out and experience more so he will fear less.

Ken

Sirius Glass · Nov 13, 2015

Hey, even paranoids have enemies!

winger · Nov 13, 2015

MartinCrabtree said:
Off topic but just a little. I rarely if ever think about a poster's gender online. Winger's post made me think of that because until I read that I had no desire to know winger's gender. I spend a good amount of time on a few motorcycle sites and you'd be surprised at the makeup there.

Having spent a bunch of time at car shows this summer, I don't think I'd be that surprised.

And I'd bet a fair number of people don't think about the poster's gender that much, either.
I have posted a self-portrait before, though, so those who remember it would know. Though I posed with a bunch of my cameras, so I wouldn't be surprised if this crowd could remember them more than what I look like. And on that note, do we know the demographic the OP falls into? No pictures posted by or of them, as far as I know. No website in their sig line.

blansky · Nov 13, 2015

MartinCrabtree said:
Off topic but just a little. I rarely if ever think about a poster's gender online. Winger's post made me think of that because until I read that I had no desire to know winger's gender. I spend a good amount of time on a few motorcycle sites and you'd be surprised at the makeup there.

Agree. I've seen some of them and I think a lot use far too much eyeliner and blue eye shadow.

Sirius Glass · Nov 13, 2015

winger said:
Having spent a bunch of time at car shows this summer, I don't think I'd be that surprised.

And I'd bet a fair number of people don't think about the poster's gender that much, either.
I have posted a self-portrait before, though, so those who remember it would know. Though I posed with a bunch of my cameras, so I wouldn't be surprised if this crowd could remember them more than what I look like. And on that note, do we know the demographic the OP falls into? No pictures posted by or of them, as far as I know. No website in their sig line.

I remember and the beautiful long dark hair.

winger · Nov 13, 2015

Sirius Glass said:
I remember and the beautiful long dark hair.

I'm blonde! Though I think it was a B&W photo, so I'll forgive you for that.

ambaker · Nov 13, 2015

So, not being included in Photo Lucidia's critical mass makes one not a photographer? It makes us an exclusive group? Perhaps a better statement would be that Photo Lucidia is not in touch with the photographic community. Photography is easier to get into than almost any other endeavor. Perhaps the entry fee was the issue. I would never pay money to enter a contest. Not because I can't afford it. But because I just don't like the notion of having to pay to compete. Perhaps the under represented groups are just smart enough not to pay to get their egos stroked.

-They tie Mountain Climbers together so that the sane ones can't go home...

MattKing · Nov 13, 2015

An appropriate title to this thread might be: "Photo Lucida's critical mass is not very inclusive".

And that conclusion would be supported by the evidence cited.

Truzi · Nov 13, 2015

winger said:
(snip) I have posted a self-portrait before, though, so those who remember it would know. Though I posed with a bunch of my cameras, so I wouldn't be surprised if this crowd could remember them more than what I look like. And on that note, do we know the demographic the OP falls into? No pictures posted by or of them, as far as I know. No website in their sig line.

There was a link to a YouTube channel in the Catlabs signature line (interestingly, the signature recently changed and the link is no longer there - though is easy to find). If you go to the YouTube channel, you will see some "stock" footage from other companies, and some "original" Catlabs footage. I have no idea whether the person in the Catlabs-created footage is the poster.

The Catlabs-created content (despite all the harping) does not show diversity - only one person (diversity is not homogeneity, regardless of demographic group). The only diversity is seen in footage that was not created by Catlabs. Yes, I investigated this during the last doppelganger thread.

I suspect this, like the signature line itself, may mysteriously change soon.

Now, in Catlabs' defense, I really don't care what demographic the company or poster falls in. Sure, there may be curiosity, but it is immaterial to the discussion as far as I'm concerned, and can lead to fallacy arguments.

I do not object to the claims of bias, nor do I refute it's existence.
What I take exception to is articles with poor scientific methods, misinterpretation/misrepresentation, judging people as being prejudiced solely by virtue of their gender/skin tone, and word versus deed.

These threads no longer frustrate me; rather, I am beginning to find them quite amusing.
However, I'm sure if we all took the time, we could probably find some common footing regarding Catlabs' comments. At the moment, one extreme statement will beget comments at opposite extremes. I seriously doubt any of us believe bias does not exist - I think the question is the extent, and whether it has been getting better (and I'm sure our older community members can attest that is has been).

Taking some time to deal with similarities and find common ground may spawn a more constructive conversation on the subject.

eddie · Nov 13, 2015

ambaker said:
I would never pay money to enter a contest. Not because I can't afford it. But because I just don't like the notion of having to pay to compete.

There are reasons behind jury fees. The jurors are compensated for their time. There are often cash rewards for winners. There are costs involved in hanging/publicizing an exhibit. Most importantly (to me, anyway) is it's also meant to attract entrants who are dedicated enough to put their money behind their work, rather than attract everyone with a camera/smartphone.

eddie · Nov 13, 2015

Truzi said:
I seriously doubt any of use believe bias does not exist - I think the question is the extent, and whether it has been getting better (and I'm sure our older community members can attest that is has been).

I have no doubt bias exists. I just don't think it's as prominent in the fine arts as in other endeavors (excluding any art form which requires the physical presence of the artist- acting, dance, music...). The arts have a long history of accepting diversity, often leading the way for the rest of society. I think bias in police forces, governments, Fortune 500 companies are much bigger issues than drawing conclusions from a relatively small photo competition, especially one in which the genders/races of the entrants are unknown to the jurors.

Photography is not a very inclusive field according to Photo Lucida's critical mass

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