Both are affected, self-conscious terms that inevitably seem to lead to pretense.
Certainly not worth a lot of hand-wringing unless you have the incredibly mistaken notion that photos by themselves are somehow "factual " -- in which case noo amount of talk will get you to change that religion.
The world around us is full of images from which photographs are made. I've seen texts on photography that refer to the "image" as that which is simply seen in the viewfinder or on the groundglass. This is just one example, but AA's "The Camera"----one chapter is devoted to "Basic Image Management".
Why must a simple concept be so perverted just because one camera photographs digitally and one photographs with film? It just seems like a non-issue.
Chuck
Good point.
I don't know what the weather is like for you today is western KY - here in NYC it's been raining all day. It's so dark and dreary you might think it was April, not July.
So reading and replying to a good old semantic "non-issue" thread like this is just the thing to drag one further down the road to despair and desperation.
Jeez, I hope it's sunny tomorrow!
Good point.
I don't know what the weather is like for you today is western KY - here in NYC it's been raining all day. It's so dark and dreary you might think it was April, not July.
So reading and replying to a good old semantic "non-issue" thread like this is just the thing to drag one further down the road to despair and desperation.
Jeez, I hope it's sunny tomorrow!
But what's depicted? A flower? In bloom? Past it? Happiness? Dirt?I dunno. I think "Is what you pointed your lens at the truth?" and "Is what's depicted, what you pointed your lens at?" are two very different and distinctly relevent questions.
But what's depicted? A flower? In bloom? Past it? Happiness? Dirt?
What is depicted here? Frontal lighting? How to not avoid getting your shadow in the frame? Central Park? Scarves? Or...... ?
Sure, a lot of family snaps and driver license photos are so minimal as to be easy stand-ins for the identity of the subject -- but they're still a long way from commercial magazine work or any other part of picture-making that would get people anxious about the distinction of whether their pic was an "image" or a "photograph"
The contact sheet is available for review in the Winogrand archive.Hmmm...looks more like Morningside Park - probably taken around 1964?
But what's depicted? A flower? In bloom? Past it? Happiness? Dirt?
What is depicted here? Frontal lighting? How to not avoid getting your shadow in the frame? Central Park? Scarves? Or...... ?
Sure, a lot of family snaps and driver license photos are so minimal as to be easy stand-ins for the identity of the subject -- but they're still a long way from commercial magazine work or any other part of picture-making that would get people anxious about the distinction of whether their pic was an "image" or a "photograph"
Well, I will say that I would rather any woman wear makeup and if the sensibilities of someone is offended because of a photo retouch than I encourage you to wake up to my most recent ex-wife in the morning.
You mean let her stay the whole night?
*Yawn*
So if anyone really feels like discussing the epistemology of photograph, I'd like them to read the following paper:
http://www.philosophy.leeds.ac.uk/Staff/AME/longphotos.pdf
And then maybe we would have something less silly to talk about.
Good Lord, mhv, I don't know about you, but Cohen and Meskin really do clear things up!!
Seems a proper photograph uniquely provides "egocentric spatial information about the object", whereas a painting does not, and that is the difference between the two. But then they started epistemologically blathering about the location of the depictum (which all this time I thought was in the neighborhood of my large intestine) and allocentric location (which I thought was having one's head up one's ass) and seeing doxastically ( which sounds rather dirty) and exactly where on the earth's surface you might be looking at your grandmothers' photograph and on and on and by the end of the 19th page I was no smarter, but a lot more sillier.
So your suggestion didn't work.
Too bad. It's not actual rubbish when you decipher the greek roots ... so to speak ... Get it? Photo! = Truth.
The point is this: people believe wrongly that a photograph has a special relationship to what it depicts.
Get it? Photo != Truth.
You're better at conclusions than I am. Where you (and the authors) draw conclusions, I still form questions. Whether such a belief is right or wrong, the belief can be used as a tool and is one source of the power of photographs, for good or ill.
Ah...but what artifact does = Truth? Witness testimony? An expert's interpretation of the forensics? Your personal experience?
Is Truth knowable...even if you stipulate the theorhetical existance of objective truth?
I can't speak for the peanut gallery but yes, mhv ... I see the Light! A photograph is, if nothing else, spatially agnostic, non-transparent and depictumly unalterable ... kind of like me, the older I get.
Some drawings will give you as much information as a photo. In other words, a photograph is not a privileged window into the world. It just happens to be better suited to provide you with visual information about its subject.
In other words? Those may be viewed as contradictory statements. If a photograph is something that some drawings will give you as much information as...how do you reconcile that with a photograph being better suited to providing visual information.
Is there no relationship between the presence of more or better visual information and an epistemological relationship between photo and subject? I'm not convinced.
As for the zen mysticism, none was intended. My question was neither socratic or rhetorical. I agree that photo != Truth. But name something that does.
OT! OT! OT!... If a photograph is something that some drawings will give you as much information as...
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