Photographing Auschwitz

RattyMouse said:

Your post reminded me of one of my all time favorite poems.

I see shining fish struggling within tight nets, while I hear orioles singing carefree tunes. Even trivial creatures know the difference between freedom and bondage. Sympathy and compassion should be but natural to the human heart.
-Tu Fu

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Nice. No creature is trivial, though, but I suppose that is what is being said. So much pain in the world, it can be overwhelming sometimes.

RattyMouse said:

Genocide has occurred several times since WWII. As usual, never again became an empty slogan.

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you've got to start somewhere.

RattyMouse said:

Genocide has occurred several times since WWII. As
usual, never again became an empty slogan.

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genocide is nothing new, its been happening since the begining of time and is sitll happening today and will happen tomorrow.
the word was coined in 1915 after the genocide hitler said "they got away with" it and no one said anything.
if you watch the film "the promise" you will get a glimpse. there are no camps or things memorialized
the host country that perpetrated the genocide has done their best to eradicate anything that has anything to do with it.
the euphrates isn't red with blood now there are no bones and bodies scattered along the syrian desert or markers
for mass graves, enslavement work camps &c ,,, and 103 years later the people that did it haven't acknowledged it.
and probably never will.

RalphLambrecht said:

you've got to start somewhere.

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We are still waiting to start.

RattyMouse said:

Genocide has occurred several times since WWII. As usual, never again became an empty slogan.

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Yes, I agree, it is an empty slogan. But for me, aside from the moral high ground of photographing these subjects, there's a bigger question. It's easy to say that "the Nazis" did it, but after all, it was the Germans, and the question remains, can they really ever be forgiven? For further reading I suggest "Hitler's Willing Executioners: Ordinary Germans and the Holocaust," by Daniel Goldhagen.

Arthurwg said:

Yes, I agree, it is an empty slogan. But for me, aside from the moral high ground of photographing these subjects, there's a bigger question. It's easy to say that "the Nazis" did it, but after all, it was the Germans, and the question remains, can they really ever be forgiven? For further reading I suggest "Hitler's Willing Executioners: Ordinary Germans and the Holocaust," by Daniel Goldhagen.

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I have not read that book, but I have read dozens of others. Being in the US, it's very easy to let the huge distance from Europe make it felt that all these tragedies happened so far away. In Europe, it was right in front of their face. Germany wiped out nearly 25% of the entire population of Poland. And they did it using industrialized slaughterhouses, not on the battlefield. Yet today Germany and Poland are decent neighbors. I find that amazing. Over on the other side of the world, China, Korea, and Japan can't let past aggression go, even after 70 or so years.

You have to forgive, otherwise the original crime lives forever.

Arthurwg said:

Yes, I agree, it is an empty slogan. But for me, aside from the moral high ground of photographing these subjects, there's a bigger question. It's easy to say that "the Nazis" did it, but after all, it was the Germans, and the question remains, can they really ever be forgiven? For further reading I suggest "Hitler's Willing Executioners: Ordinary Germans and the Holocaust," by Daniel Goldhagen.

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I haven't read the book, but I studied the Holocaust in uni in a lot of detail, and, somewhat relatedly, was part of some research about whether or not people would actually (actively) stand up to a regime like the Nazis if it happened again in one's own country. And while most people would like to think that they would, the reality is that a very small percentage of people (I can't remember exactly, but I think it's around 5%) would actually do so, whether they were an active part of the regime ("I was just following orders") or bystanders/victims themselves in their own country. I certainly came across that same issue when I did some research about the Khmer Rouge after visiting Cambodia for the first time. I had a psych professor in university who studied this phenomenom from two different angles (religion and politics) and after years of research and experiments (of which I was a part of) came to this conclusion. There's other research out there about it but to be honest I haven't read about it for some time. I think I'll give the book a read although I do not agree with the blurb about it that it "lays to rest many myths about the Holocaust: that Germans were ignorant of the mass destruction of Jews, that the killers were all SS men, and that those who slaughtered Jews did so reluctantly." Who believes that? That certainly wasn't the case when I studied about it over 25 years ago, although I guess the book is not that much more recent.

RattyMouse said:

Yet today Germany and Poland are decent neighbors. I find that amazing. Over on the other side of the world, China, Korea, and Japan can't let past aggression go, even after 70 or so years.

You have to forgive, otherwise the original crime lives forever.

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Agreed. The big difference is that Germany has owned up to its past, and has tried to make sure it never happens again, through laws, the education of its citizens, and the memorials it keeps. Japan, on the other hand, refuses to accept any responsibility for their actions during the war, preferring to see themselves as victims, and will not take the high road in admitting to what was done and trying to atone for it. It's no wonder than China and South Korea (and I imagine some other countries too) have issues with Japan, and will bring it up from time to time to push Japan's buttons, which they can do easily, since the country will not accept the shame of what happened in the past. Most of my students have never heard of any of the atrocities that occurred prior and during the war, and I have had a few come to me in tears after learning about something horrible, like the Nanking massacre, because they couldn't believe that Japanese could do such a thing. So it shouldn't be a surprise either that Abe and his very conservative government is changing the pacifist constitution to allow Japanese to more actively take part in military operations, something that many of the older generation here, who lived through the war, are quite opposed to, while the younger generation are indifferent to it, or think it's a good idea, because they have no idea about their own history.

The research of Stanley Milgram addresses such issues.

mooseontheloose said:

I



Agreed. The big difference is that Germany has owned up to its past, and has tried to make sure it never happens again, through laws, the education of its citizens, and the memorials it keeps. Japan, on the other hand, refuses to accept any responsibility for their actions during the war, preferring to see themselves as victims, and will not take the high road in admitting to what was done and trying to atone for it.

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Really? The facts suggest Japan accepts their responsibility and has for many decades.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_Japan

I do often wonder if a culture can "evolve."

Arthurwg said:

I do often wonder if a culture can "evolve."

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don't think so.
actually, it should be added
to the list of the wonders of the world
that humans haven't ended life on this planet

jnanian said:

don't think so.
actually, it should be added
to the list of the wonders of the world
that humans haven't ended life on this planet

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Modern man has been around for about 200,000 years. Dinosaurs lasted 165 million years. We still have time to make ourselves extinct.

Theo Sulphate said:

Modern man has been around for about 200,000 years. Dinosaurs lasted 165 million years. We still have time to make ourselves extinct.

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uh huh, it won't be long now, we've pretty much ruined the planet, and we are still at eachothers throats...

i gotta cheer myself up, im gonna go back to watching 8hours-straight of poppy

RattyMouse said:

Really? The facts suggest Japan accepts their responsibility and has for many decades.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_Japan

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Their government has not in the past and definitely not in the present. Definitely not with the comfort women.

Sirius Glass said:

Their government has not in the past and definitely not in the present. Definitely not with the comfort women.

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+1
Apologies are one thing, but actions speak louder than words. The government sending agents to ask American authors/publishers to remove comfort women references from history books, the yearly visit to Yasukuni Shrine (where Class A war criminals are commemorated) by multiple government officials - and often the prime minister, the lack of education about this and other atrocities to the younger generation is something the government needs to work on.

mooseontheloose said:

+1
Apologies are one thing, but actions speak louder than words. The government sending agents to ask American authors/publishers to remove comfort women references from history books, the yearly visit to Yasukuni Shrine (where Class A war criminals are commemorated) by multiple government officials - and often the prime minister, the lack of education about this and other atrocities to the younger generation is something the government needs to work on.

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That is indeed reprehensible, but I think it's good to draw a firm distinction between the ultra conservatives who drive this story backwards and regular people. As someone who is daily appalled by my president, I can say firmly that nothing he says in anyway represents me. Before Abe, there were more liberal prime ministers in Japan who did not take these backwards views.

"As Prime Minister of Japan, I thus extend anew my most sincere apologies and remorse to all the women who underwent immeasurable and painful experiences and suffered incurable physical and psychological wounds as comfort women." -Tomiichi Murayama

"We Japanese should first and foremost recall the truth of that tragic period when Japanese actions inflicted suffering and sorrow upon your people. We should never forget our feelings of remorse over this. As Prime Minister of Japan, I would like to declare anew my remorse at these deeds and tender my apology to the people of the Republic of Korea."--Kiichi Miyazawa (speaking in Korea about the issue of comfort women)

David A. Goldfarb said:

I’ve followed this issue, and it’s mainly the selfies that are in question, not photography in general.

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selfies seem to be the issue...

i think we need more photographs of man's atrocities to man... more reminders, not less. it would be nice if they were all expressive and artful... but it doesn't matter... inhumanity is not tasteful.

I'm just waiting for the easily offended to gather and say it's just too much to deal with we must tear it down. If things continue on the current tangent it's not all that far fetched.

At Auschwitz I wouldn't photograph. I'd want to be by myself, to be quiet, and to blank out thoughts about tourists. No camera, no phone, perhaps pad and pencil.

My country has it's own horrible sins: Vietnam, Iraq, Syria. What will we do to Korea? To Alaska?

I was indeed on my very own in a camp in the Netherlands. Finally I came across another visitor. She asked me if that all can repeat. I said, yes. And we parted.

AgX said:

I was indeed on my very own in a camp in the Netherlands. Finally I came across another visitor. She asked me if that all can repeat. I said, yes. And we parted.

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this is probably the heaviest thing i have read in a while
and its not even even the 60s...

Arthurwg said:

I do often wonder if a culture can "evolve."

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Of course it can. It does not mean it goes in the right direction. Look at how people behave nowadays in any public place and ask yourself if were the case a century or even 50 years ago. Very sad.

Dali said:

Of course it can. It does not mean it goes in the right direction. Look at how people behave nowadays in any public place and ask yourself if were the case a century or even 50 years ago. Very sad.

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I don't totally agree.
I'm thinking in particular about societal attitudes to those with physical and intellectual restrictions. I think that there has been a substantial improvement in that area, and would suggest that that is essentially a cultural change.

Arthurwg said:

I do often wonder if a culture can "evolve."

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Culture evolves all the time whether we like it or not. It's heavily dependant upon the agent of evolution. If we have divisive politicians with limited worldviews, it evolves of the worst.

Always remember it takes only a brief moment for you to become what you fear. Treat the unfortunate accordingly.