Photographic Emulsion Stabliizers

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Ryuji

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As far as the Manganous Sulfate, since it was mentioned in the Duffin book, I used it from the beginning. I don't know if it has any effect on the emulsion, and can probably be omitted.

Jim,

Do you think that manganese (II) giving extra stability to your emulsion?

The book in question, the book by Fischer, does mention manganous salt as well as mercury and cadmium (the usual stabilizers used in old days). Now there are quite some old patents specifically mentioning manganese, although those other two are also mentioned, as a stabilizer, and I wonder it may be useful, though perhaps not nearly so as the modern synthetic agents.
 
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Kirk Keyes

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Ryuji - Does Fischer mention the mechanism that cadmium or mercury used when these species were used as stabilizers? And when he says stabilizer, does he mean that it keeps the product from fogging - ie. it stops the action of sulfur speed enhancement?
 

dyetransfer

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Jim,

Do you think that manganese (II) giving extra stability to your emulsion?

QUOTE]

Hi Ryuji, I can't answer this question, because I have always made this addition. I got this from Duffin. I would have to remove the component, and do a stability test with and without. It may have no effect whatsoever, without testing, who knows?

Regards - Jim Browning
 

Ryuji

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Ryuji - Does Fischer mention the mechanism that cadmium or mercury used when these species were used as stabilizers? And when he says stabilizer, does he mean that it keeps the product from fogging - ie. it stops the action of sulfur speed enhancement?

The mechanism is where problem begins. Fischer lumps divalent metals in one short section on p. 138, where he gives reference to James 4th edition for the mechanism, but then James 4th edition gives reference to Mueller and Spracklen for mercury and Ranter for Au, Pt, Ir salts. They all point toward oxidation of metallic silver specks, and while that may be true in some cases, I have rather difficult time believing that is the mechanism, at least for manganese.

First of all, if the oxidizing power is so significant, why gelatin doesn't interact with the metal salt much faster? Gelatin contains some reducing components, such as sugars, methionine, cystine, aldehydes, etc. Since 1980s oxidized gelatin was introduced to emulsion making, but adding manganese to the kettle is a lot cheaper solution if that was adequate. (Caveat: one main motivation of using oxidized gelatin was tabular grain, and for that matter, adding manganese in the kettle can be a bad idea, as it may affect the crystal habit.)

Also, if the oxidizing power is significant enough to bleach the reduction fog centers, why isn't manganese used often in gold sensitized emulsions? (Gold sensitized emulsions are very sensitive to reduction fog centers and that's probably one of the three most probable reasons for why gold sensitization can be difficult.) In reality, use of a mild but rapid acting oxidizing agents is frequently contemplated and probably used in practice to produce very low fog emulsions.

Well, I'll have to read what Mueller and Spracklen found before making my opinion on this matter.

Generally, the behavior of metal salt/complex dopants/sensitizers/stabilizers is not very straight forward because there are many mechanisms in action. For one thing, they can adsorb on AgX surface and affect the ripening rate (can accelerate or retard, sometime one agent can do both), influence on the interstitial silver ion level, influence on the electron lifetime via electron trap mechanisms, influence on the crystal habit and/or lattice defects, incorporation into sensitivity centers, redox reaction, etc. For example, look at iron or ruthenium. It can kill the sensitivity, it can fog emulsion, and it can improve speed by reducing high intensity reciprocity failure, all depending on how, how much and where they are used. Iron is Fuji's favorite, and ruthenium, Eastman Kodak. Cadmium generally reduces sensitivity but when used in a very small quantity, it can enhance speed (I think Atwell of Eastman Kodak had a patent dated in 50s or 60s on this... I reproduced his results with more eco-friendly metal salts and some of them were similarly useful, tho the effect was less than what Atwell claimed.) Cadmium salts have strong ripening inhibition and I can see that the resulting emulsion is a bit more stable. But at the same time, if this is the effect being sought, organics (like PMT or MBI) can do better.

Fischer also mentions this, but among the metal salts, I think the most useful and widely used as emulsion stabilizer was mercury compounds, either organic or inorganic. Mueller had a good patent on this subject, but his patents are not as informative as his academic publications. Large grain emulsions with S+Au sensitization, like those used for direct (non-screen) x-ray applications are very difficult to stabilize and mercury compounds are very very popular in those patents, but what replaced mercury compounds is a good question.

If manganese provides a unique stabilizing property not obtainable with common organic stabilizers, I think it is a great news to us. At the same time, if the same effect can be had by slightly increasing the amount of common organic stabilizers/antifoggants/restrainers, I don't see why we should bother with manganese...
 
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Ryuji

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Not that these patents have any information you can't get elsewhere, see US Pats 2839405 and 3720516.

Mueller also said that manganese salt was more commonly used in chloride emulsions.
 

hrst

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Shopping these doesn't seem very easy. Tetra Aza Indene has vanished from the Formulary's list. I'll try to ask them if it's still available, but in the meantime, can any of you say if this is the same substance;
http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog...ALDRICH&N5=SEARCH_CONCAT_PNO|BRAND_KEY&F=SPEC
7-Hydroxy-5-methyl[1,2,4]triazolo[1,5-a]pyrimidine

It seems to have the same CAS number, but the naming of organic chemistry is not too easy :D. At least when I have only high school chemistry as my theoretical background.
 

Photo Engineer

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The Formulary has TAI both as crystals and as a solution as described by Jim Browning on his web site.

The chemical you have above is the correct stabilzer. It is drawn upside down from the convention I have. :wink:

PE
 

dyetransfer

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TAI at the Forumulary

The Formulary has TAI both as crystals and as a solution as described by Jim Browning on his web site.

PE

In Fact, the TAI that the Forumulary has is the same stock that I used, I sold it to Bud along with all the coating / drying / emulsion making equipment. I got 3 Kg of the stuff from Allied, it wasn't too expensive in 1Kg bottles. Not sure if you can get it from them anymore - the contact is listed in my manual.

Regards - Jim Browning
 

hrst

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Interestingly, when I contacted Formulary, they said they don't have TAI and never had it. I mentioned the names of Ron and Jim but they didn't answer to that.

But, I managed to get an account from Sigma-Aldrich, so I ordered TAI, PMT and MBI. Had to sign a customer declaration for PMT :whistling:

I also bought some cryptocyanine for panchromatic experiments...
 

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Photo Engineer

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I'm surprised, because the TAI solution was in their catalog. I saw the bottle of the solid chemical there on my last visit.

In fact, I made up the original solution for them to show them how it was made and I wrote the procedure up.

PE
 

Photo Engineer

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I checked with the Formulary and they have responded that they do have it as both the working solution and as the pure compound. It was a simple error that slipped through.

PE
 

Nodda Duma

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Tagging for reference. I have some TAI incoming (it was surprisingly difficult to find a supplier willing to ship directly to me) which I will be testing out. Here is a summary of what I've gleaned ... correct me if I'm wrong

TAI stabilizes sulfur sensitization (any benefit for non-sulfur-sensitized emulsions?)
Should it be used in conjunction with KBr for stabilization, or used instead of KBr? Btw, adding KBr as a stabilizer seems to cause a loss of speed.. does that sound right?
The addition of TAI adds about a stop of speed
It should be added after chemical ripening but before coating. Any special requirements for temperature, time to mix? I.e. Can it just be stirred in at 40C and then coat away?
Add at rate of 100-1500mg / mol of silver
It helps with chemical fogging as well... add the minimum amount required to clear the emulsion (which I assume will be an amount within the range above).
Do not eat TAI.


Anything else?

Thanks,
Jason
 

Photo Engineer

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TAI can cause a speed loss or a gain or just a decrease in fog depending on the chemical sensitization. It can be added at a variety of times for the optimum effect. It can be used with or without Bromide, and this use can only be determined by experiment.

TAI should NOT be eaten, but emulsions will enjoy it.

PE
 

Nodda Duma

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I have Birr’s book. He references Kodak sources suggesting TAI added after chemical ripening. Wouldn’t this interfere with sulphur / gold sensitization?
 

Nodda Duma

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Lol. Who needs sleep I guess :wink:

I’ve gone from Elec Eng to Optical Engineer to Lens Designer to Systems Engineer to Business Owner to Acquisition Guru to... All learned OTJ. Might as well add Chem Eng to that. :wink:
 

Photo Engineer

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TAI and others are added both before and after chemical sensitization. It depends on level and type of agent and emulsion. They all have different effects depending on halide type and are more effective or more restraining with Chlorides and less so with Br/I as I goes up.

Give me a call sometime and we can talk about it.

PE
 
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