Photographers with Bad Attitudes

Tom Stanworth · Jun 24, 2007

The trick to dealing with such people is to refuse to indulge in reverence. I think the minute one assumes that the person passing the verdict has some kind of absolute authority, you are relinquishing the very independence of thought that is surely essential to being your own photographer. I remember sharing and exhibit with a digital photographer who was a key member of hi local club. He told me how pleased he was that the local 'god' from his club was coming down and that I would do well to talk to him. The creature finally appeared, complete with favourtite plastic bag and cherished 30 year old coat and proceeded to walk about looking at our work with a look of seriousness and professionalism that was entirely out of keeping. I never did speak to him because he clearly thought I should approach him (despite the fact that it was my work on the wall) and his body language screamed 'I am the 'absolute authority' that puts newbies in their place'. I could not care less about his opinion at the time and could not care less now either. To get thru such encounters one has to let the inner confidence, even arrogance, come to the surface. Play it meek and the nasties will have you on strings, making the 'improvements' they desire and in creative terms you will gain nothing. Good teachers never make a pupil feel that way and are not insecure enough to need to make themselves feel better by ridiculing the work of others. Sadly, I think some camera clubs are the playground of those who themselves got bullied and were no good at sport i.e payback!

firecracker · Jun 24, 2007

Back in college in my basic photo classes, I remember I was almost always subject to harsh unconstructive criticism and bashing from some of the fellow students and a few instructors. As I look back now, I believe that had a lot to do with their personalities. But what the heck, I had a much thicker skin than they thought I did, I guess.

bjorke · Jun 24, 2007

You want bad attitude?

I just made myself watch the old Ayn-Rand-original-script THE FOUNTAINHEAD.

I now realize that all the people who have every recommended it to me are deeply deranged.

Ed Sukach · Jun 24, 2007

Tom Stanworth said:
... He told me how pleased he was that the local 'god' from his club was coming down ...
... his body language screamed 'I am the 'absolute authority' that puts newbies in their place'. I could not care less about his opinion at the time and could not care less now either.

Been there, done that - have the T-shirt.

To get thru such encounters one has to let the inner confidence, even arrogance, come to the surface. Play it meek and the nasties will have you on strings, making the 'improvements' they desire and in creative terms you will gain nothing. Good teachers never make a pupil feel that way and are not insecure enough to need to make themselves feel better by ridiculing the work of others. Sadly, I think some camera clubs are the playground of those who themselves got bullied and were no good at sport i.e payback!

My observations, exactly. I would eagerly join an organization that did NOT treat newcomers like this ... so far I haven't found one. Not to say they do not exist, but certainly the bully-free ones are rare.

Ian Leake · Jun 24, 2007

A few years ago when I was a junior learning my "real job" I had the pleasure of being shouted at for 40 minutes by a Partner who was angry at me because he'd made a really bad mistake in front of the client. I learned a huge amount from this one, slightly traumatic, event. And it's helped me much more than I expected at the time - especially now that I'm a senior teaching others.

There are "bad eggs" in every walk of life. When you encounter one (which you will), it's up to you to decide how to react. You can choose to listen and learn (i.e. don’t worry about what they’re saying, but ask yourself why they’re saying it), or you can allow yourself to get disillusioned and give up. The choice is yours.

snegron · Jun 24, 2007

Tom Stanworth said:
The trick to dealing with such people is to refuse to indulge in reverence. I think the minute one assumes that the person passing the verdict has some kind of absolute authority, you are relinquishing the very independence of thought that is surely essential to being your own photographer. I remember sharing and exhibit with a digital photographer who was a key member of hi local club. He told me how pleased he was that the local 'god' from his club was coming down and that I would do well to talk to him. The creature finally appeared, complete with favourtite plastic bag and cherished 30 year old coat and proceeded to walk about looking at our work with a look of seriousness and professionalism that was entirely out of keeping. I never did speak to him because he clearly thought I should approach him (despite the fact that it was my work on the wall) and his body language screamed 'I am the 'absolute authority' that puts newbies in their place'. I could not care less about his opinion at the time and could not care less now either. To get thru such encounters one has to let the inner confidence, even arrogance, come to the surface. Play it meek and the nasties will have you on strings, making the 'improvements' they desire and in creative terms you will gain nothing. Good teachers never make a pupil feel that way and are not insecure enough to need to make themselves feel better by ridiculing the work of others. Sadly, I think some camera clubs are the playground of those who themselves got bullied and were no good at sport i.e payback!

Very interesting observation! I think that the same holds true in just about any learning circumstance. I sometimes wonder if it is human nature to demonstrate the "alpha male" attitude when dealing with another person who demonstrates either a challenge or exhibits a weakness in some way. Those who are in a position of learning are more vulnerable to attacks from the "alpha male" types. I can remember a college professor or two who behaved just as harsh as those photographers with a bad attitude! Taking your example of playground bullies, I agree that these bad attitude people are just victimizing others such as they were once victimized.

dmr · Jun 24, 2007

copake_ham said:
I was going to guess Willoughby's or Olden over in the Herald Square area. Now THEY were both arrogant SOBs - mainly to distract you from the fact that they were both overpriced.

I went to both of them. I think it was Willoughby's where the creep asked me "yeah, you got any money with you?" when I asked if they had what I wanted. Jerk! A couple years later I actually befriended a lady who worked there, and was much better in attitude. I remember Olden very well. They seemed high.

47th St. Photo was a few years later and you're right they too were SOBs.

I know I was there at one time or another, but I don't really remember the place per se.

The place I eventually bought from was Minifilm Photo on 8th. Ave. Nicest guy there and no pressure at all.

There were some hard core scam artists that I remember, and it seemed that the more you wandered from the Herald Square area to the Times Square area the worse they got.

The scam I remember most was they had the Pentax Spotmatic in the window on special, and with it were the 35mm and 135mm Pentax Takumar lenses, with a sign that implied it was all a package deal as shown.

Well, it turns out that what you would actually get were the 35mm and 135mm off-brand (Lentar?) lenses.

No thanks.

jstraw · Jun 24, 2007

I don't know if the bastard in the OP was younger or older but I will offer that I have been rude. I have been rude and regretted it. I have learned that I was rude in ways that I didn't recognize as rude at the time. I have been arrogant, egotistical and vain. I'm sure I'm not all finished being those things.

Entertain the possibility that the person the OP spoke of has recognized his rudeness, regretted it, grown from it and done better by people because of it. It happens...and maybe...just maybe, not only has this person done more good for other photographers than harm...that some portion of the good could never have happened without the bad....and that while he may never redeem himself with you...he may yet redeem himself.

Call me Candide.

paxette · Jun 24, 2007

braxus said:
I guess the closest thing to this would be going to a photography club here in BC that turned me sour.

I don't know if it is the same club (I live in the Fraser Valley as well) but I had a similar experience to yours and left because of it.

Early Riser · Jun 24, 2007

jovo said:
I wonder if that signature Jorge used to use...if you own a camera you're a photographer; if you own a piano you own a piano...has implications here. It's so superficially easy to make photographs that some people don't appreciate how much work goes into making good ones, which perhaps brings out the rude and defensive behavior you describe in a few who've spent years mastering skills the novice doesn't even realize exist. Not that that's an excuse for such behavior, but it might be a factor in understanding it. So far, I've been lucky enough to not have had such an unpleasant experience.

I agree with John, and with Jorge's signature line. Granted there's no excuse for boorish or rude behavior on anyone's part, although that same type of behavior comes just as often from the amateur as the pro.

I can not tell you how many times at a party I'm introduced as a professional photographer to someone who's "also into photography", and that person spends the next 20 minutes telling me all about what they're doing photographically and never once asks me about my photography. It's become a running joke between my wife and I. When I was an amateur I would jump at the chance to meet a pro and would have a million questions for them about their photography and what I need to do to better my work and to become a pro. But now it seems that most people believe the marketing hype put out by the photo manufacturers that if you buy "pro" gear you can shoot just like the pros. I can understand why many of my colleagues may have bad attitudes regarding amateurs.

One thing that might be considered rude by an amateur getting critiqued by a pro is that most pros don't mince words in a critique. The only critique worth anything is an honest one coming from someone knowledgeable. While saying a photo is crap or stupid or just plain being denigrating is the wrong way to give advice, many people find even the most appropriate and meaningful comments to be too harsh to bear. People who truly care about bettering their work want real comments from knowledgeable people, and those people will learn and better their work.

Ed Sukach · Jun 24, 2007

Early Riser said:
People who truly care about bettering their work want real comments from knowledgeable people, and those people will learn and better their work.

Interesting emphasis on "knowledge".

I recognize your reasoning here ... but as for me, I much prefer reading, internalizing and attending the stream of consciousness (dancing around with words here - trying to choose the right ones) of those viewing my work to TRY to understand the "cause" (mine) and "effect" (theirs) of my work.

I've noticed quite a bit of common ground through the levels of photographic art expertise - enough so that I really do not consider knowledge to be a significant factor.

I think what I'm trying to say is that I find more - most - of my successes are the results of following my heart (note 1) and indulging in my fascinations.
I've found that listening to myself is one of the fastest and by far the most efficient way to... "learn"??? - IMPROVE my work

Note 1 ... Yeah, I know this is trite, but how else can I say it?

Early Riser · Jun 24, 2007

Yes Ed the emphasis was on "knowledgeable" because getting opinions and advice from people who don't have a clue is pretty much a waste of time isn't it? Well maybe you don't think so as you stated that," I really do not consider knowledge to be a significant factor." I have a very hard time understanding your POV there as it seems ridiculous to me.

Whatever success I have had I can directly attribute to having learned from very knowledgeable people, extrapolating on what they taught me and by doing a huge amount of experimentation. I follow my heart with my work, but much of my foundation as a photographer was based on the lessons of others.

Nicole · Jun 24, 2007

I've had a few doozies with remarkable comments to me over the years. I'm now looking at it from a different perspective though as I'm about to judge images at a local camera club in a couple of weeks. I'm concerned about saying something that might offend whilst remaining honest and true to myself.

MattKing · Jun 24, 2007

Nicole said:
I've had a few doozies with remarkable comments to me over the years. I'm now looking at it from a different perspective though as I'm about to judge images at a local camera club in a couple of weeks. I'm concerned about saying something that might offend whilst remaining honest and true to myself.

The phrases: "This works well, and I think the reasons are..." or "This doesn't work well, and I think the reasons are" are ones I find very useful.

Matt

vet173 · Jun 25, 2007

copake_ham said:
"shoot like a pro"?

Just because you can shoot ten gazillion shots perfectly exposed doesn't mean you can CAPTURE what a pro can. As evidence I present any wedding shot by the uncle.

Wyno · Jun 25, 2007

I used to have friend who was just starting out doing tourist postcards and she used to come to me and ask for advice on how to photograph certain scenes and what would be the best film, etc, etc. I spent lots of time with her showing her how to get the shots she wanted and in a lot of cases where to go to get them.
A few years later she told me that she'd had people who were aspiring to do what she was doing asking her for advice and she'd told them to work it out for themselves.
She wasn't happy when I told her that I thought her attitude sucked, and that she had taken advantage of the information I had given her but was too selfish to pass it on to others. I found out later that this was her normal attitude to life and needless to say we're not friends anymore.
Mike

vet173 · Jun 25, 2007

I've found that people like that don't have much to offer. When I was an apprentice cat mechanic, the only ones who wouldn't help were ones who didn't know much and didn't want you to know more than them making you more valuable at layoff time when things got slow. I reserve my best snide replys for that type.

Tom Stanworth · Jun 25, 2007

vet173 said:
Just because you can shoot ten gazillion shots perfectly exposed doesn't mean you can CAPTURE what a pro can. As evidence I present any wedding shot by the uncle.

Ah, yes but Uncles dont have pro cameras, because if they did then..... I know this is what many uncles would say!

Tom Stanworth · Jun 25, 2007

vet173 said:
I've found that people like that don't have much to offer. When I was an apprentice cat mechanic, the only ones who wouldn't help were ones who didn't know much and didn't want you to know more than them making you more valuable at layoff time when things got slow. I reserve my best snide replys for that type.

Cat mechanic....interesting job!

I remember a housemate at university helping her friend a great deal with her chemistry degree and really taking her under her wing as this girl was not the sharpest tool in the box and my housemate was substantially more gifted. My housemate then fell seriously ill and had many hospital apointments and time off, arriving back on the course a couple of days after paperwork had to be submitted for industry placemements in their penultimate year. My friend has asked this girl to let her know when this paperwork needed submitting as well as interview schedules as she had to juggle this with medical treatment. this girl kept deathly silent and told my friend nothing so that once back on the course she had missed the deadlines and missed out completely. It turned out they both wanted the same placement and this girl 'Terri' later admitted that she had deliberately kept the info to hersels 'because it is dog eat dog out there'. She deliberately shafted the person who had helped her pass her exams and get thru the course quite deliberately over a placement, where many other vacancies existed but Terri had her heart set on the one that my housemate was well positioned for. Even after my friend was back at the university, Terri had attended verious briefings and had STILL kept quiet because whe was concerned that my fiend might still be able to use extenuating circumstances to allow for late submissions....

Some time ago but I will never forget and yes...she was not bright and needed every advantage she could get...or so she thought. Needless to say she lost her 'tutor', ended up with a so-so finals result and did not gain employment with the company she had sought the placement with...which she had not been awarded in any case!!!!

Andy K · Jun 25, 2007

Tom Stanworth said:
Cat mechanic....interesting job!

Very interesting

Tom Stanworth · Jun 25, 2007

ahhh. With the T and R next to to one another I thought it was a gypo

Tony Egan · Jun 25, 2007

vet173 said:
... When I was an apprentice cat mechanic, ....

I'm sure your motors always purred when you were done

Andy K · Jun 25, 2007

Tom Stanworth said:
ahhh. With the T and R next to to one another I thought it was a gypo

Now now, you know the correct term is either Romany or Diddakoi.

jstraw · Jun 25, 2007

Nicole said:
I've had a few doozies with remarkable comments to me over the years. I'm now looking at it from a different perspective though as I'm about to judge images at a local camera club in a couple of weeks. I'm concerned about saying something that might offend whilst remaining honest and true to myself.

Even with a photograh where nothing is right, the opportunity to apprach the critique as constructive and positive is there. If you can deduce what the intent was, you can speak of ways the intention can be better realized. If you can't deduce that, even the subject offers an chance to talk about how to succeed.

I can really see what you were after here. XXX can be a challenging subject. Some stratgies that you may find effective when dealing with it are...

RAP · Jun 25, 2007

Here is probably the most honest critique I have ever recieved back in college;

Dead Link Removed

Carroll, from what I was told, worked with Steiglitz for a time. Unfortunetly he is long gone.

Photographers with Bad Attitudes

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