Photographers Formulary 130 paper developer very dark

arnie k

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I just mixed up a batch of PF 130 paper developer and I noticed the glycin powder was darker than usual. When I mixed into the solution the now stock solution was very dark brown. Is this a problem?
I emailed PF but since this is a weekend I am not expecting to hear from them until next week. And a corollary question, is there a similar developer that is easier to mix or comes in liquid form. In the past I used LPD but that does not work well with Ilford Multigrade Classic which results in a slight green olive tone. The MC does like Dektol but I do not print that often and a long lasting developer is a real plus. Thanks.
 

Alan9940

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You could always do a bit of selenium toning to remove the greenish tone.
 
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arnie k

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There is no green tone with the PF 130, just with LPD which I no longer use but thanks.
 

john_s

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There used to be a sticky thread about Ansco 130 here at Photrio, but now you have to do a search for it.

Ansco 130

Hi: I am trying ansco 130 for the first time and have been using 1:1 dilution and 60 sec as was recommended. I feel like 60 sec is to short, and am wondering what the rest of you who use this developer use for time and dilution.
www.photrio.com

Brown glycin is a common problem. It is not fresh and will not work as well.
 

GregY

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Was it fresh PF130? If i'm not mixing it immediately when i get it from the Formulary, i put the glycin in the freezer so it doesn't degrade. The mix always comes out straw colour.
 

juan

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I've used 130 off and on for years. While it is "common knowledge" that darker glycin does not work as well, I've used rather tan glycin in developers that have only glycin as the developing agent and it had worked as normal. I've also found that 130 gets dark as it ages but still works as usual.

Please let us know what PF has to say. I'd bet the developer will be just fine.
 

xkaes

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GregY said:
Was it fresh PF130? If i'm not mixing it immediately when i get it from the Formulary, i put the glycin in the freezer so it doesn't degrade. The mix always comes out straw colour.
Click to expand...

Glycin goes bad at room temp?
 

GregY

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xkaes said:
Glycin goes bad at room temp?
Click to expand...

Yes...

How long does glycin keep?

Photographers Formulary and the Anchell books stress the need for fresh glycin. Does anybody have real world experience with the keeping qualities of glycin kept in a cool dark dry storage area? Also, FX-2 stock solutions are said to keep for a year in full sealed bottles. How 'bout partially fil...
www.photo.net
 

xkaes

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I was mistakenly thinking of Glycine, not Glycin.

My years old Glycine is a white powder, and looks like new.

Glycin is white when new, but turns brown, and deteriorates, with age. I have no idea how long it takes to "go bad", but I would not use Glycin that is brown.

Does freezing Glycin solve the "browning" problem?
 

GregY

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yes ....it remains tan coloured.
 

DREW WILEY

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Glycin powder goes from off-white to tan to mocha to chocolate brown to brown black. At a certain point - distinct chocolate, it stains the paper itself to such a degree that it's counterproductive. I only open one 100g bottle of glycin at a time, and keep the rest frozen, which does work. The exact effect of the glycin varies a little due to age. I don't worry if it goes tan, but deep brown or black, time to throw it out. But since I use up a 100g bottle of powder in less than a year, it doesn't get to that point. The strategy is to buy fresh glycin, and freezer store whatever you don't need during the next few months.
 
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xkaes

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Very interesting stuff. I have to ask -- is/can OLD Glycin be used as a toner? I like brown toner, and I would think the degree of toning could be controlled by the dilution and/or toning time.
 

DREW WILEY

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I experimented with that, using dark brown glycin. Yes and no. Didn't suit my taste. The highlights come out weak and dirty (veiled). Sulfide brown toner is a much better option.
 

koraks

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xkaes said:
My years old Glycine is a white powder, and looks like new.
Click to expand...

Does it have a photographic use? I've never looked into it. It did pop up fairly recently in a discussion about E6 bleach accelerators as I recall, but that's the first time I remember glycine appearing as a photographic chemical.
To clarify: I'm talking about CAS 56-40-6!
 

albada

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A year ago, I experimented with many amino acids to determine what photographic effects they have in a PQ film developer. Here is my summary for Glycine:

Multiplies development-time by 0.67x (i.e., it's an accelerator).​
No effect on grain.​
Weak acid w/ pKa=9.6 (thus might be useful for buffering).​
Good chelator.​

In a PC developer, Glycine made grain worse, but otherwise had no effect.

Mark
 

koraks

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albada said:
Weak acid w/ pKa=9.6
Click to expand...

This led me to look it up; apparently glycine is amphoteric with pKa's of 2.34 and 9.6. I'm not sure how this works exactly in terms of buffering etc., especially in the presence of e.g. carbonate. I'll take your word for it that it does something, and apparently increases activity of an already alkaline developer.
(Note that if it had been a weak acid, its pKa would have been <7).

Thanks for sharing this; it's quite useful indeed, especially this:
albada said:
Good chelator.
Click to expand...

I need to look into that as it may be a useful property. Might be useful in ascorbate developers, for instance!
 

eli griggs

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There is a difference in Glycin and Glycine, so please be very clear if you're discussing Glycine for Ansco 130 Developer or the other substance; it matters!
 

koraks

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eli griggs said:
There is a difference in Glycin and Glycine
Click to expand...

Indeed.
Photographic glycin = CAS 122-87-2
The amino acid glycine used as a food additive, common reagent, biological building block etc = CAS 56-40-6

I was specific in #14 for this very reason. @albada's post also evidently refers to CAS 56-40-6 given the pKa.

For those who may not realize it:
Photographic glycin (CAS 122-87-2) is the developing agent in Ansco 130 and a number of other developers.
The amino acid glycine (CAS 56-40-6) is not a developing agent.
 

GregY

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Yes. Thank you!
 

xkaes

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They are different, but related -- Glycin (N-(4-hydroxyphenyl)glycine) is derived from Glycine
 
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koraks

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xkaes said:
They are different, but related -- Glycin (N-(4-hydroxyphenyl)glycine) is derived from Glycine
Click to expand...

They are related for sure:
Glycin:
Glycine:

Note how the glycine molecule is essentially part of the glycin one. Or, if you will - photographic glycin is 4-aminophenol (a.k.a. Rodinal) with glycine stuck to it.
 

eli griggs

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DREW WILEY said:
Here we go down another rabbit hole.
Click to expand...

Not quite, however its just that some here keep referencing "Glycine" when it is "Glycin" we are discussing as a component of Ansco 130 and everyone interested should use the correct word, Glycin, so others are not mixed up on what they need for the developer (pun unintended).



Seeing that many people come here to learn, we can not help them by getting common chemical names wrong.

It's just that simple.

Eli
P.S. spell check could be partially to blame; mine keeps adding the dreaded 'e' to the end of Glycin.
 

albada

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koraks said:
I need to look into that as it ["good chelator"] may be a useful property. Might be useful in ascorbate developers, for instance!
Click to expand...

My notes say that I got no precipitation in my hard water with over 2.5 g/L of Glycine at pH of 8.8.
But grain was worse in my PC test, so I think Glycine won't help ascorbate film developers, although it could help paper developers.

Mark
 

xkaes

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There are a few B&W formulas that call for Glycine. I hope they didn't mean Glycin -- and vice versa
 
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