Photographers are like beer

Aggie · Dec 16, 2005

This thread, yes could get out of hand, but if a person really doesn't like someone elses work that is their opinion. I'm no great shakes as a photographer, but I keep plugging away. I've had many many (out the wazoo) art history and appreciation classes. When all is said and done, it comes down to the personal question of do I like what I see? For me it is totally a personal judgement as to what I like and dislike. Everyone here has stated exactly that. What they like and dislike. If we keep it civil and explain our reasonings when it seems we are not clear, it should not have a problem in terms of needing to be moved.

Personally I like William Henry Jackson for the tenacity and daring he had in his time. I dislike Stigleitz for his assesment of the man. It was like a man in an elite cliche denouncing one who was not part of their group. It clouds my judegment of his (Stigleitz) work.

roteague · Dec 16, 2005

Different photographers and photographs have different meanings for us. One of my favorite B&W images is hanging over my desk; it was given to me by John McCallum when I was in Auckland in October. I appreciate its technical excellence, but I appreciate the friendship behind it even more.

Graeme Hird · Dec 17, 2005

Graeme Hird - what a hack .... take his LF camera away and give him a digital ...

firecracker · Dec 17, 2005

severian said:
Thanks to the thread started by Roteague we have page after page of posts detailing the photographers that have inspired us. Lets go in the opposite direction. Of all the photographers that have been proclaimed "great", do you feel that there are any that have not really lived up to the billing. Who is overrated? I know, it's all subjective but whats your opinion? Photographers are like beer. There is no really bad beer, some are just better than others. My choice for the one that should not make the Hall of Fame.......Arbus

Jack

There are bad beers out there! Also, there are some fake beers. They are just nasty. They kill everything that's tasteful in the same way that digital prints do.

If you're too drunk to tell, that's a problem.

Dave Wooten · Dec 17, 2005

In my not so humble opinion, Ansel has been given credits that belong to Carleton Watkins, Carleton Watkins contribution to photography and his body of work has been smothered. at times intentionally.....Carleton Watkins is the man....Carleton Watkins....check him out....

bill schwab · Dec 17, 2005

Dave Wooten said:
Carleton Watkins is the man....

You won't get an argument from me on that one Dave!

Bill

Jim Chinn · Dec 17, 2005

I find that my appreciation of some photographers changes over time. For example at first I did not like Arbus. Then I started to like the work. Regardless of the issues of her work being exploitive or voyureistic, it just continually grows on me.

Others have to be understood in context of history. Many don't like Steiglitz's work and a lot of people dismiss J Margeret Cameron or Clarence White because of their pictorialism styles, but to see such work 80-100 years ago would have been a tremendous revelation.

Others have to be viewed in relationship to other art movements. Uelsmann's work is more about surrealism then photography. He uses the darkroom and camera to produce a work of art that has more in common with Salvador Dali and Giorgio De Chirico then Ansel Adams.

Moholy Nagy along with Man Ray were painters and innovators who picked up the camera like many others between the wars as a tool to make a new kind of art and not specifically photographs. They used the camera and darkroom as another tool in the Dada movement.

As someone else pointed out, who you like and don't like has a great deal to do with your own style of work and who "attracted" you to photography in the first place. I have argued wtih people about Harry Callahan. They will argue that he is terribly overrated and his work is pedestrian at best with the exception of some of his nudes of his wife.
When I discovered Callahan it changed my enthusiasm for photography immeadiately. I started out drinking the Ansel Adams kool-aid thinking the only way to be a real phtographer was to camp out in Yosemite with an 8x10.
But Callahan revealed to me a whole way of seeing the world most of us inhabit on a daily basis. As far as Adams goes, I love the man's work, but I don't have the eye for the grand landscape.

c6h6o3 · Dec 17, 2005

Bill Mitchell said:
STEIGLITZ. average photographer, miniscule output.

Miniscule output? http://www.nga.gov/cgi-bin/psearch?Request=A&Person=231930
The NGA collection alone contains over 1600 prints of his. Or did you mean that the prints were small?

roteague · Dec 17, 2005

Graeme Hird said:
Graeme Hird - what a hack .... take his LF camera away and give him a digital ...

Nah!!! Graeme is the man. The guy is a wizard with a camera.

toddstew · Dec 18, 2005

The other day, I put down Moholy Nagy. Since then, I've been bohered by the fact that I did. Without Moholy Nagy, we might not have Harry Callahan, or even Aaron Siskind to the degree that we do/did. I jumped in with a hair trigger because of my feeling towards photograms; in that I don't react to them very positively. I began to feel guilty that I put him down in a fit of possible arrogance. I just had to get that off of my chest.
thanks for listening to my confession
todd

Chuck_P · Dec 18, 2005

billschwab said:
See, this is what I am talking about. I know Mr. Uelsmann as a great guy. He is kind and gracious to students and pros. Both those with potential AND those that may want to look for a fall-back option. He has a huge following, including my wife who has sentimental connections to many of his images. The man would never say anything bad about anothers work.

In fact, I have either met, or know any number of people that might be discussed on this board as I am sure many of you have or do. All of them are just like us... they love their work and are eternally grateful that people enjoy it and give their support. I have never known any of them to speak badly of others work in a public forum such as this. It is to be certain that people are going to have different tastes. That is one of the beautiful things in life. How boring if everyone liked the same things? We are photographers, not critics.

I am afraid this thread is going to end up saying more about the person posting the opinion than the person whose work he/she is publically showing disrespect for.

Again, just my opinion, but this should be a Soap Box issue so it can be turned off if the member/subscriber desires.

Bill

I think this is well said, I agree.

removed account4 · Dec 18, 2005

i have a few names on my "short list" ...
but i will keep them to myself.

all i've got to say is one person's crap is another person's treasure.

severian · Dec 19, 2005

ice cream not beer

Did I say beer? I meant to say ice cream. The best is without doubt Bassetts and the most overrated is...Blue Bell (sorry Texas), Jerry Uelsmann is a GREAT ARTIST! Of course we are both Indiana U grads so we stick together.
Jack B

Roger Krueger · Dec 19, 2005

Nan Goldin

Late Winogrand (I love much of his 60's work, but around 1970 his talent utterly vanished).

Mike/Doug Starn

Late Cindy Sherman--I like her "Untitled Film Stills", but everything from the last decade seems pointless.

Ansel Adams I dislike for his f64 facist attitude, but grudgingly admire most of his work.

r-brian · Dec 20, 2005

Lee Friedlander. I just don't get it. His 'gritty' PJ and street stuff just looks like bad snapshots to me. I saw his exhibit on his Arizona desert stuff a few years back at the Center for Creative Photography and thought it was junk. One photo had his shadow in the corner, another had the tripod leg in the corner. Quirky doesn't pass for art.

cao · Dec 20, 2005

It involves the D word, but...

Loretta Lux has my nomination for "most disposable photog."
Why is a Digi-crud version of Margaret Keane so notable?

NikoSperi · Dec 20, 2005

Mary Ellen Mark.
In fact, I have a mint condition book "Exposure" up for grabs as it's hogging alot of coffee table space.

severian · Dec 22, 2005

arrogant

toddstew said:
The other day, I put down Moholy Nagy. Since then, I've been bohered by the fact that I did. Without Moholy Nagy, we might not have Harry Callahan, or even Aaron Siskind to the degree that we do/did. I jumped in with a hair trigger because of my feeling towards photograms; in that I don't react to them very positively. I began to feel guilty that I put him down in a fit of possible arrogance. I just had to get that off of my chest.
thanks for listening to my confession
todd

Todd'
You weren't being arrogant just truthful. Stick with that policy
Jack B

severian · Dec 22, 2005

Beets

Early Riser said:
I won't comment on any photographers in particular, although I do think that saying why you dislike someone's work can be an educational discussion and have as much merit as saying why you like someone's work. However, I think for this type of critical discussion to have value it's important to explain why you don't like their work. Not just that you think it's lousy, but why is it lousy to you? Is it boring? Mundane? Poorly composed? The terms that you use to discuss why you dislike someone's work is a good way to determine just what it is that you value in a photograph and could be a good indicator of why and what you shoot.

Fame or notariety for a photographer changes the perception that others have of his/her work. My own criteria is that a photograph should be able to stand on it's own merits. If it needs a brand name photographer, shock value, or celebrity as the subject to give it any value, to me it is a meritless photo.

Early Riser,
I hate beets. Not for any great philosophical reason. I hate them because they taste bad.
Jack

roteague · Dec 22, 2005

severian said:
Early Riser,
I hate beets. Not for any great philosophical reason. I hate them because they taste bad.
Jack

I like beets, especially in hamburgers.

severian · Dec 22, 2005

beet lover

roteague said:
I like beets, especially in hamburgers.

I knew I would unmask the beet lovers.
Jack

removed account4 · Dec 22, 2005

toddstew said:
The other day, I put down Moholy Nagy. Since then, I've been bohered by the fact that I did. Without Moholy Nagy, we might not have Harry Callahan, or even Aaron Siskind to the degree that we do/did. I jumped in with a hair trigger because of my feeling towards photograms; in that I don't react to them very positively. I began to feel guilty that I put him down in a fit of possible arrogance. I just had to get that off of my chest.
thanks for listening to my confession
todd

todd

i am not quite sure what the connection is between maholy nagy and aaron siskind. siskind's abstracts were his interpretation of franz kline and the others in the "new york 5" but with a camera, instead of a paintbrush ... i guess because maholy nagy was doing his own thing, as aaron siskind and harry callahan did many years later ?

john

toddstew · Dec 22, 2005

Moholy Nagy, along with Siskind and Callahan were part of the Chicago Institute of Design. They all brought their own sensibilities regarding "New Bauhaus", but were all part of a similar mindset. I think they were peers in Chicago, but could be wrong.
Todd

toddstew · Dec 22, 2005

Thanks jack

severian said:
Todd'
You weren't being arrogant just truthful. Stick with that policy
Jack B

I just had to get that off my chest. Thanks Jack.
Todd

removed account4 · Dec 22, 2005

toddstew said:
Moholy Nagy, along with Siskind and Callahan were part of the Chicago Institute of Design. They all brought their own sensibilities regarding "New Bauhaus", but were all part of a similar mindset. I think they were peers in Chicago, but could be wrong.
Todd

callahan and siskind were in providence at risd --- it taught bauhaus (and still does) ..

... i never came across anything blatent between them - maholy nagy and siskind - (wrote art history papers on them both ) ... maybe i was reading the wrong stuff ? --- you are probably right, 'bout their influence on eachother - its a small world ...

-john

Photographers are like beer

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