Photo Shop Rant (not the software)

joeyk49 · May 3, 2006

Aargh!!! (I seem to be exclaiming that alot, lately...)

David: you can move this wherever you want. This is the closest place I could figure for it.

Local photo STOREs are going out of business AND contributing to the demise of film based photography, because THEY'RE DOING NOTHING ABOUT IT!!!

I'm not talking about the big city stores that are well diversified and usually stock everything digi/analog or in between. I'm talking about the little, one store, local guy that we always hear griping about the big box stores, yada yada, yada...

My local local guy doesn't stock squat! A few envelopes of K*d*k D-76 and TMax developers and half a box of dusty, micellaneous printing utensils. He'd be glad to sell you the newest Nikon or Canon dslr, though...

So, I drive the 20 miles to the next town with a photography shop, to pick up some developer, fixer and a couple of lens cap keeper thingees. I know, from past experience, that this shop carries Rodinal, and a variety of K*d*k and Ilford developers. I bee-line for the location of the Rodinal...nuthin...not even an empty display box. I make some sort of grunting noise (not sure myself what it actually was) and ask the nice lady seated at the computer (next to the Agfa processor; ironic, huh?), if they were still stocking Rodinal. "Didn't they stop making that?" was her reply. "Yeah, but they started again. Getting any any time soon? How much?"

After four phone calls to suppliers (2 were to Kodak reps(???)) I learned that no one had any in stock. She then said, "How about another developer?" I tell her that I like Rodinal, but have been playing around with some of the Ilford stuff; namely ID-11 and Perceptol. "PERCEPTOL!!! Honey we gotta get you outta the dark ages!" (A stinging rebuke)

Now, keep in mind, this is the same person that called 2 different K*d*k reps in search of Rodinal...

I responded, with all possible composure: "Ma'am, I'm firmly planted in the dark. I like Rodinal. I like Perceptol and I'm starting to like ID-11. (I said this as I was holding an envelope of Xtol in my hands) For all their committment to film photography, I'm leaning away from Kojak. I'll only come out of the dark, kicking and screaming."

Trying to salvage the sale, an associate tried to interest me in one of the other yellow envelopes on the shelf. He pointed to the Xtol in my hand and said, "That's only for paper, isn't it? What are you shooting?" To his credit, (gotta give it where due) when I told him that I was developing PanF, he said, "You need something for fine grain, not this stuff (pointing at the other yellow bags)."

At that point, I pretty much knew I was done.

As I left the shop and started looking around the town for suitable photo ops, I looked back and smiled as I saw that the awnings and outside decorations of the shop. They had once been bright yellow, standing out against the gray background of the streetscape. Now they (actually) looked sun faded and in disrepair; obviously suffering from several years of inattention and/or neglect.

I got into my truck and drove home...didn't shoot a single frame...

Thanks. I had to vent...

Ray Heath · May 4, 2006

yeh, its annoying Joey,
but i think we shouldn't be surprised that materials and equipment are being phased out

afterall any business has to make make money, if the products don't sell in sufficient volume to be financially viable, why make them

do you work? do you do jobs that benefit others for free? do you like to earn money from your endeavours?

why hate a company because it no longer satisfies your particular needs?

David H. Bebbington · May 4, 2006

The last time I looked into this (about 18 months ago), the position in the UK with Ilford was that they insisted on a minimum order of £100, would not accept orders that were any smaller at any price (not even if customers were willing to pay additional charges) and required an order value of £500 before they would give maximum discount (which was of the order of 50%).

This meant that if small dealers put in a minimum order for a representative selection of b+w products, these would probably be more than they could sell within a reasonable time and the goods would end up exceeding their sell-by date and being sold off for a song. One reason why the goods would not sell would be that small dealers would have to pay the manufacturer more than discount sellers charge their retail customers.

Given the undeniable drop in the level of demand for b+w film and paper products and chemistry and the way in which manufacturers' trading policies have exacerbated this trend to the nth degree, it is not surprising if counter staff in small photo dealerships lack experience of these products and are unable to advise customers competently.

I personally for some years made a point of ordering all my LF film, b+w chemistry and printing paper from my local dealer, who was a friend. It gradually became clear, however, that I was not doing him a favor by doing this, the ordering procedure was laborious (sometimes impossible because of minimum-order requirements) and totally unprofitable for him.

I now buy all rollfilm from the UK's major discount seller (Mather's) and all other film, chemistry and paper requirements from the leading (in fact virtually only) major chain of photo shops, Jessop's, since this store is one of the few where I can combine film, powder chemicals and wet chemicals into one order. I will always prefer a small supplier over a big one if I have a choice, here I have no choice at all.

david b · May 4, 2006

Sorry to hear about that Joe. What towns are you talking about?

I must admit that I am somehow lucky to have two somewhat decent camera shops about 1/2 mile away from each other here in Albuquerque.

The stock both Ilford and Kodak but do charge full retail.

I did have the mishap of walking into one of them (c&d) and when I asked the sales associate for Tri-X, she had to ask another sales associate what that was. I walked out.

For me, I always order from Freestyle but if I'm in a pinch, I can go local.

leeturner · May 4, 2006

I live near one large town and work near another larger town. Nowhere in these towns can I buy any chemicals or paper, and this includes a Jessops store. Now I can waste my time by driving a 50 mile round trip to the nearest city, paying exorbitant parking charges and then maybe finding out that what I need is not in stock or I can order online and have the stuff within a day or two. It's not just photography that's being affected. There used to be independant record and book shops in the local town, if you wanted something a little different they'd get it for you. Now we have HMV and if it's not in the shop it's not available so again I buy online. Sadly within a year or two I think this will be the only way to buy photographic supplies.

Andy K · May 4, 2006

David H. Bebbington said:
I now buy all rollfilm from the UK's major discount seller (Mather's) and all other film, chemistry and paper requirements from the leading (in fact virtually only) major chain of photo shops, Jessop's, since this store is one of the few where I can combine film, powder chemicals and wet chemicals into one order. I will always prefer a small supplier over a big one if I have a choice, here I have no choice at all.

David there is plenty of choice. We have Silverprint, Nova, Retrophotographic, Arem Direct, Firstcall... I only use Jessops now for items I KNOW they will have in-store or for liquid chemicals exceeding 5 litres.

David H. Bebbington · May 4, 2006

Andy K said:
David there is plenty of choice. We have Silverprint, Nova, Retrophotographic, Arem Direct, Firstcall... I only use Jessops now for items I KNOW they will have in-store or for liquid chemicals exceeding 5 litres.

What you say is true but only confirms that the only option is a large mail-order seller - the main point I was making was that finding what you need at your local high-street store is a thing of the past!

Stoo Batchelor · May 4, 2006

joeyk49 said:
Aargh!!! (I seem to be exclaiming that alot, lately...)

[

Local photo STOREs are going out of business AND contributing to the demise of film based photography, because THEY'RE DOING NOTHING ABOUT IT!!!

Click to expand...

Joey, I will have to agree with you 100% and there is no excuse for it. It has been proven that digital and darkroom equipment can live side by side on the shelf. Here in the U.K, a success story that has done just that is R.K Photographic. Most film users in the U.K will know the name. They will also know his story.

Up untill recently, he had a dusty little high street shop, packed full of darkroom equipment. It was an Aladins Cave to the likes of me. Mainly an importer of Meopta (still is) . Along came digital, so hey! lets move with the times, but lets not forget the faithfull film users either.

He moved to a bigger, more modern premises, clued up on the digital side of the biz, and offered his services on the net, delivery etc, but guess what, I can still visit him to pick up my goods as he built himself a new, much more shinier Aladins cave.

Your greeted with a friendly smile, offered good sound, Knowledgeable advice, and if its not on his shelf, he will get it for you! (still a box of Kentmere Art Classic 16 x 12 x 50 sitting there)

SO, LOOK AND LEARN, All you other so called High Street retailers!

I know this doesn't help you but just to show that it can be done!!!

Regards

Stoo

joeyk49 · May 4, 2006

It has been proven that digital and darkroom equipment can live side by side on the shelf. Here in the U.K, a success story that has done just that is R.K Photographic. Most film users in the U.K will know the name. They will also know his story.

Your greeted with a friendly smile, offered good sound, Knowledgeable advice, and if its not on his shelf, he will get it for you! (still a box of Kentmere Art Classic 16 x 12 x 50 sitting there)

SO, LOOK AND LEARN, All you other so called High Street retailers!

I know this doesn't help you but just to show that it can be done!!![/QUOTE]

Many of the little guys seem to be hastening their own demise. Most people do not buy their digital cameras from local dealers. They buy them from big box retailers or on-line. The only thing that seems to be keeping pace is the shop's printing business. At both locations, the clerk had to leave what they were doing at the Agfa printer (I still find that ironic) to help me.

Neither location advertises, so they really don't pull in much new business. I've seen the shelf stock, at both locations, dwindle to a point that the stores are begining to look like thrift shops. I haven't worked in a retail environment for close to thirty years, but I know that your shelves have to be neat and look full, otherwise it turns the average customer off. I also know that you work to get (lure) them into the store with advertising and well priced items and increase your profit margin by selling other stuff, once they're in. I walked out of both locations without buying a thing...

The shop owners should be embracing digital. Not to do so is pure suicide. But it appears to me that they are almost literally pushing their analog customers right out the door. A savy shop owner would find away to hook the fish that the other stores are ignoring...

noseoil · May 4, 2006

"A savy shop owner would find away to hook the fish that the other stores are ignoring..."

Perhaps you could do it. tim

Bill Mitchell · May 4, 2006

Don't complain! My local stores have all been bought out by a chain (Wolf/Ritz), and don't even carry D-76 or Fixer.

Phillip P. Dimor · May 4, 2006

I work at a photo shop. I agree with you on most points. The profit is with dslr's and printing for repeat customers.

There was one customer who came in with a Wisner and said "I bet you don't even know what this is." That was fun.

So far i've been at this job for almost a year and have came across two people who are bw nuts like myself.

I know that we aren't doing much good for the analog community.. But our employees need to get paid, our machines need to be fed chemistry and paper.. Our service contract is expensive. We sell what people ask for and around here, people aren't asking for black and white. Or even film for that matter. Those who do shoot bw, order it mailorder.

I feel your pain and frustration.

I witness it on a daily basis.

mark · May 4, 2006

David, In C&D don't talk to anyone but the guy with one arm. (sounds cryptic, but can't remember his name). He is the only one who knows anything about film photography. When they moved to the new digs they forgot their roots, and went over the top digital.

The little guy has to stay in business, I agree with that but they could have a small section of analogue for us trogs who just stepped out of the cave.

David Brown · May 4, 2006

My frustration here in north Texas (Dallas), is that there is enough of a community to support one, good store. But, we don't have one, we have several, none of whom can stock a complete inventory.

I got spoiled growing up in San Antonio, where there was a firm called Southwest Photo Supply, a "professional stockhouse". It was like an auto parts place. There was a counter, and behind the counter were people who knew what they were doing. Whatever I asked for, they could go in the back and bring it to me! There were no other camera stores in the area of any significance, but it didn't matter. SWP had everything.

In 1989, I moved to Dallas. No SWP. There were many, little neighborhood camera shops that had enough Kodak chemicals and paper to get by. Now, due to the conditions discussed in this thread, half of those stores are gone, and the other half have pitiful inventories. The irony is that most of them are trying, because there is still B&W analog being taught in some of the local high schools and junior colleges. But, none of them can stock a good inventory (as discussed above). However, I really believe one store could probably pull it off.

Oh, well. I will support local stores as long as I can, but I generally have to go to 2 or 3 to get everything on my shopping list.

And, of course, the owner of SWP retired and the outfit no longer exists ...

BruceN · May 4, 2006

It's been that way here for some time. My E-6 stuff all gets sent 272 miles away, to the nearest lab that will do "dip and dunk" processing. They do an excellent job and never a scratch like the machines often seem to leave. I don't mind waiting a week or so for superior results. All Black & White supplies (most of my photography these days) get ordered from Freestyly, J&C, P. Formulary and Calumet. The only thing the local shop is good for anymore are mediocre scans, frontier prints and large inkjet prints - services which aren't in very high demand in my household. I use frontier for scrapbook snapshots, but I take 'em to Wal Mart, where I get my "moneys worth."
All "serious" lab work (except for C-41, which I shoot very little of other than for snapshots) gets sent out.
All in all I don't have much to complain about. While I do miss being able to stop by the store and visit, I can still feed that need by getting together with local photographers to talk shop. As far as materials - the selection, availability and affordability have never been better for me. Sure some things have gone, but new materials and sources keep popping up every day. My future with traditional photographic processes is several stops brighter than it's ever been.

Just my 2 lux worth.

Bruce

df cardwell · May 4, 2006

I guess a camera shop really ought to carry D76 AND ID11, pay a wage to staff that would let them own their own home, stock Wisners, Canhams and that chinese camera, offer Frontier prints on a choice of contrasts, and undersell B&H.

In the old days, it was ALL mail order, or by telegraph.

Since we live in suburbs, exurbs, and bedroom communities, buy at Walmart and whine over how expensive a Nikon is on Ebay... we've done it to ourselves.

Order ahead, buy in a co-op if you can ( so you can always have a few rolls of odd film around if you need it ) and stop whining about Kodak.

And stop by that camera shop from time to time. The owner probably misses the good old days as well, and is wondering what to do about retirement.

.

MikeM1977 · May 4, 2006

I long ago stopped bothering w/ trying to buy darkroom chemicals, film, and paper locally.

For chemicals, consider mixing yourself. From local stores, I bought a bottle of ascorbic acid, washing soda, and Borax. I ordered a supply of phenidone and potassium bromide. That is all I need for a solid film and paper developer.

For fixer, I ordered a supply of thiosulfate (you might even be able to obtain this from local pool supply stores) and sodium sulfite. With this I can either make a plain fixer, or by adding some Red Devil Lye and Borax, I have TF-2 alkaline fixer. Need a stop both? Just get some citric acid. Even plain vinegar can work in a pinch.

My local shop sells a roll of Velvia for something like $8. This is a 100% markup over www.bhphoto.com.

dalahorse · May 4, 2006

mark said:
David, In C&D don't talk to anyone but the guy with one arm. (sounds cryptic, but can't remember his name). He is the only one who knows anything about film photography.

Yes, the fella with the one arm is a very good resource. So is the guy with the big curly hair.

For what it's worth, I wouldn't be bothered a clerk does not know what Tri-X is. The thing is, she went and found someone who did. Would you have walked out if you overheard a clerk refer a customer with DSLR questions to someone with more digital knowledge? Each clerk is going to have particular areas of expertize.

mark said:
When they moved to the new digs they forgot their roots, and went over the top digital.

I do agree with that. I particularly miss walking into the back room of the old building to dig through used darkroom equipment. The new store certainly caters more to the new customers. But they've never treated me with disrespect when I shop in the darkroom area. I even had the one armed man call around to find Perceptol for me when Ilford stopped shipping powdered chemicals.

Now, when dealing with their neighbor up the road (we'll call it "C's"), I have actually been insulted by one of the clerks for purchasing film. That's a store that will never get my business again.

mark · May 4, 2006

Yeah "Cs" is a nasty place. I wnet in a month ago looking some lee filters and was told to just do it in PS. I then asked about used LF lenses and the guy Humphed and walked away. They have always been rude.

I like C&D. I wonder what happened to all that back room flotsam. They also used to have a drawer full of odd retaining rings, mounting flanges and it was a mess. Kind of like a treasure hunt. At least they still have everything, except a good selection of filters. Last time I was there the one armed guy was lamenting the demise of the darkroom demand.

Gerald Koch · May 4, 2006

MikeM1977 said:
For chemicals, consider mixing yourself. From local stores, I bought a bottle of ascorbic acid, washing soda, and Borax. I ordered a supply of phenidone and potassium bromide. That is all I need for a solid film and paper developer.

For fixer, I ordered a supply of thiosulfate (you might even be able to obtain this from local pool supply stores) and sodium sulfite. With this I can either make a plain fixer, or by adding some Red Devil Lye and Borax, I have TF-2 alkaline fixer. Need a stop both? Just get some citric acid. Even plain vinegar can work in a pinch.

Let me add that some pool supply stores sell sodium bromide (~ $6/lb) which is used with bromine rather than chlorine based systems. Multiply KBr amount by 0.86 for amount of sodium bromide. BTW, all Kodak official formulas called for sodium bromide rather than the potassium salt.

Mick Fagan · May 4, 2006

In Melbourne we are lucky in that we are home to probably the biggest genuine photographic store in Australia, Vanbars.

You can go berserk in there purchasing almost anything electronic or analogue. Probably the largest array of film and paper B&W or colour in stock and available to walk out with.

I recently discovered their North Melbourne store, it's heaven!

You can walk around a warehouse type of environment checking out new and used enlargers, pick up B&W paper in all sorts of sizes from the pallets stacked in the paper section, or smaller sizes on the shelves

Choose from a glorious selection of alternative processes, both film and paper.

Neg holders and folders abound with enough on display to literally fill a room with.

Pretty much the full selection of Marshalls hand colouring kits and doo-dads.

Trays, thermometers, mixers, reels, tanks, dishes to gigantic sizes and lots more.

Then there is the second hand section, where I recently added another bulk film loader to my collection.

Anyone visiting Melbourne should just go for a walk in this Alladdin's cave, for their photographic fix!

It's the best store I have ever seen in many, many years.

Mick.

derevaun · May 5, 2006

I'm relieved to see that our local camera shop isn't embracing digital. There's no way they could compete with Walmart, Best Buy and Ritz/Kits/Wolf for a share of devices that are outdated within a few months. They do digital prints but mainly they sell themselves on being a locally owned business with lots of services to offer. They have a few classic cameras in a case to give that vibe--nothing says "knowledgeable" like a TLR and a couple folders sitting up on a shelf.

It's a bummer that they carry only the basic darkroom stuff, but I'm glad they figured out a way for me to get a bag of Nacco fixer or 49mm ND filter without waiting a week for it, or worse, letting it show up on the credit card statement for my wife to complain about

MattKing · May 5, 2006

I really wish for an evolution in the marketplace.

Something like the Ritz chain in the USA or Jessops in the UK, a large number of local stores, but with most of business actually done through a central warehouse-like store.

Think of it - you go to your local store - they either have the item in stock, or they have a direct order system through their central website store.

You either inspect the sample item at the store, or review the comprehensive catalogue information, with the help of both the local store staff, and the specialty staff at the central warehouse/main store, and then place your order through the local store. If the local store doesn't stock it, the central warehose/main store ships it to the local store, which is where you pick it up and pay for it (maybe at time of order).

The local store could provide the services that work best from a storefront (reprints, one hour photo, etc.) and keep in stock those items that are ordered regularly.

Specialty items could be brought in for inspection.

Floor space (and commercial rents) could be minimized.

Relationships could be established between customers and staff even if the special contact person isn't actually at the local store.

It would be necessary to put significant resources into constructing and maintaining comprehensive and informative "catalogue" resources, but they would serve as sales aids as well.

Is this just wishful thinking?

Matt

gnashings · May 5, 2006

If I hear another "well, this stuff is just not selling..." comment I might flip. At the local photo shop, there are two (2), count them - 1... and there is the other one... - people who know a reasonable amount about traditional photography. The rest are either full-digital or kids who could be asking you about "fries with that" for all they know about cameras.
I looked at their pitiful little selection of things that are just not selling: crammed in the back corner of the store, on a little shelf that you have to squat next to in order to see what's on it, is their entire darkroom section. Next to it, is the used camera and lenses section. Now wonder its "not selling" - they don't want it to sell, because digital P&S cameras and latest wonder gizmos are much simpler and easier to push, not to mention much more fashionable. Did it ever occur to any of them that in the course of a day, a traditional photo enthusiast walks through their store, sees little of what he wants or needs crammed in a hard to find place next to ridiculously over-priced cameras in so-so shape at best. When you put a rough looking Canon A1 body on a shelf with a $399 CDN price tag, why are you shocked "its just not selling"? Over-price your digi-gizmos by a factor of almost four and they won't sell either! Hide them in a corner where no one can see them, get a staff that is inept beyond filling course-requirement lists from the local community college and you have the complete image. When I walk into a photo-store, a rank amateur, I expect the people behind the counter to have at least a cursory knowledge of what I am asking about. When I asked about Perceptol, the guy behind the counter had no idea if it was a camera, a tripod or an ink cartridge. I think he should at least know what it is - I am not looking for dilutions or development times, just being able to tell it apart from his own ass. Sometimes I feel like going in there and asking for light meter fluid or a lens enlargement pump just to see them trying to find one...
Someone will make money on traditional photography by applying the same principle that Ilford is applying on the manufacturing side: get the merchendise, get the right staff, GET THE WORD OUT! Show some commitment and knowledge, and people will drive out of their way to come to your store. I know I would. For the longest time, I paid a lot more for my film and developer at a local, privately owned photostore for those very reasons. Of course, they too went all digital and I gave up on them.
The market is still there. Its smaller, its a lot more specialized and requires a different approach - but its there. And all it requires is some basic business sense - same principles that you would use to sell fruits and veggies or screws and nails: know your customer and your product and give people a reason to buy from you rather than someone else. These people are under the impression that no one buys this stuff because no one buys it from them - well, that's not the case. No one buys it from them because they either don't have the "it" in question, don't even know what "it" is, and on top of that have the ridiculous attitude of thinking they know better than their customers. And in the end, the last principle of running a successful business is: the customer is always right (at least as far as the customer knows).
Well... end of rant, I think...

Papa Tango · May 5, 2006

The good old days

I grew up in the golden age of photo shops; tons of used equipment for sale or rent, darkroom space that could be rented also, and so many camera and darkroom items it was staggering. Not to mention chemistry. Ahhh, the smell of that little corner of the shop. I remember clearly the rows of enlargers for sale. But just like the old mom & pop hardware crammed with everything, big boxes dealing in internet business have taken over.

There are still a few around everywhere, but not like there once was. I live near the end of the world, and everything must come by truck or mail. Sigh...

Photo Shop Rant (not the software)

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