Photo Printing Paper for enlarging and not Inkjet........

John Wiegerink · Tuesday at 11:07 AM

I'm curious as to what the folks here, that are still darkroom creatures, prefer for making enlargements. I'm most interested in what they use for landscape photography. What paper is used, what developer preferred with said paper and why that choice. I've been using Foma paper and homemade ID-62 for just horsing around lately. Fomabrom Variant III seems like a good paper, but slightly warm tone. I'm setting my darkroom back up to full scale and want to get back to being a little more serious about printing again. Most of the papers I preferred in the past are no longer made so this thread is about current papers and not papers from the past. This thread might also be informative for someone thinking about getting into darkroom printing for the first time.

koraks · Tuesday at 11:20 AM

Can't really go wrong with Fomabrom and Fomaspeed IMO, especially with an eye to their modest price point. I like DIY ID62 as well. I prefer to tone my prints, mostly selenium and/or sepia. Use whatever you can get your hands on, I'd say.

miha · Tuesday at 11:23 AM

Foma paper with home-brew ID-62 is honestly about as good as it gets. The only real alternative for me would be Ilford, especially if you selenium tone. My experience with Foma is that the colour shift after selenium isn’t really to my taste.

If convenience is a factor and you prefer liquid developers, there are more options. My own preference in that case is Moersch SE4 Neutral.

John Wiegerink · Tuesday at 11:28 AM

miha said:
Foma paper with home-brew ID-62 is honestly about as good as it gets. The only real alternative for me would be Ilford, especially if you selenium tone. My experience with Foma is that the colour shift after selenium isn’t really to my taste.

If convenience is a factor and you prefer liquid developers, there are more options. My own preference in that case is Moersch SE4 Neutral.

That's the one thing I have noticed with Foma compared to Ilford is that toning with selenium is not the same. No matter of how hard I try I can't get the cool purplish hue with Foma that I got with Oriental or Ilford papers. I've tried different dilutions and longer times, but no luck.

Milpool · Tuesday at 11:43 AM

Ilford MG Classic mostly, Dektol, KRST 1+40.

I’m currently experimenting with Foma papers. Adding small amounts of PMT / Finisher Blue to Dektol to “neutralize” the papers slightly.

John Wiegerink · Tuesday at 12:13 PM

Milpool said:
Ilford MG Classic mostly, Dektol, KRST 1+40.

I’m currently experimenting with Foma papers. Adding small amounts of PMT / Finisher Blue to Dektol to “neutralize” the papers slightly.

So, are you finding the Foma papers slightly on the warm side too or is it just me?

chuckroast · Tuesday at 12:31 PM

John Wiegerink said:
I'm curious as to what the folks here, that are still darkroom creatures, prefer for making enlargements. I'm most interested in what they use for landscape photography. What paper is used, what developer preferred with said paper and why that choice. I've been using Foma paper and homemade ID-62 for just horsing around lately. Fomabrom Variant III seems like a good paper, but slightly warm tone. I'm setting my darkroom back up to full scale and want to get back to being a little more serious about printing again. Most of the papers I preferred in the past are no longer made so this thread is about current papers and not papers from the past. This thread might also be informative for someone thinking about getting into darkroom printing for the first time.

I use Fomabrom Variant 111 VCFB with Dektol or my own variant of Ansco 130. I tone in Kodak Rapid Selenium toner.

I only use Dektol and derive the Ansco 130 from it, because I still have a whole lot of it here. Once it is gone, I will mix tD-72 or 130 from scratch. The warmth or coolness of the print can be controlled in some degree by fidding the developer formula.

I have a whole Gallery of scanned workbook prints I maintain. You can get a sense of the outcomes (within the limits of what a monitor can show you) here:

Workbook Print Scans - Home

koraks · Tuesday at 12:34 PM

John Wiegerink said:
So, are you finding the Foma papers slightly on the warm side too or is it just me?

I don't have measurements on Fomabrom handy, but here's for Fomaspeed, which as far as I can tell is the same emulsion on a different (RC) base:

This is a* against b* from Lab*.
Left-right is cyan-red, top-bottom is yellow-blue.
The low densities are at the bottom of the plot, so they're ever so slightly red (but this is insignificant) and somewhat blue (possibly due to whitening/brightening agents in the paper base). This might be different for the FB paper since it's on a different base.
You see the midtones trend towards nearly dead neutral, but high densities start to shift towards red again, but this time pronouncedly. This is actually visible to the naked eye; blacks on Fomaspeed are kind of maroon.

This is in ID62; the plot happens to be for a fairly hard grade. I could look up softer grades if you want, but I don't recall it made much of a difference.

retina_restoration · Tuesday at 12:35 PM

Fomatone Classic with ID68. The result is a similar look to Agfa Portriga Rapid.

Milpool · Tuesday at 12:37 PM

John Wiegerink said:
So, are you finding the Foma papers slightly on the warm side too or is it just me?

A little bit (although I haven’t gone through them all yet). But it’s easy to adjust with the developer additive. I’m hoping to move from Ilford to Foma basically because the Ilford papers are becoming extremely expensive. The Foma papers look just as nice to me. As long as I don’t run into quality problems they could be a nice alternative.

I actually preferred the colour of MGIV a little bit to MG Classic, but anyway.

John Wiegerink · Tuesday at 2:18 PM

Milpool said:
A little bit (although I haven’t gone through them all yet). But it’s easy to adjust with the developer additive. I’m hoping to move from Ilford to Foma basically because the Ilford papers are becoming extremely expensive. The Foma papers look just as nice to me. As long as I don’t run into quality problems they could be a nice alternative.

I actually preferred the colour of MGIV a little bit to MG Classic, but anyway.

Oh, I have no problem with the look of Foma Fomabrom paper or the way they act contrast wise, but just think it's a tad warm and would like to know how to "cool" it down someway. I even ordered some Chinese Amidol to play with Fomabrom and will see if I can get a slightly cooler look. I don't think the Amidol will help, but it's worth a try. Next might be a very light/short run in a blue toner?
Paul,
I haven't tried any of the Fomatone papers yet, but when the darkroom is in full swing I plan on it. Unless I find something I like much better in the meantime. I realize that darkroom printing took a big hit when scanning and inkjet printing finally improved enough for critical printers. I do also scan and print with both dye and pigment inks, but while the prints really are nice I prefer using my enlarger. I find darkroom work to be a very good stress reliever and digital not so much. Just me of course.

Rick A · Tuesday at 2:25 PM

I found I like Fomaspeed Varient 313 so I bought a roll of and cut custom sizes. My developer of choice has ben Ethol LPD for over 40 years now, no need to change.

GregY · Tuesday at 2:39 PM

In my darkroom I have all 3 Ilford FB variants (classic,cool,wt), Foma Variant & 131, several boxes of Oriental VC 16x20, and assorted others, including Azo & a little Fortezo. B&H has been my main supplier but their stock of Foma is decidedly thinner than in the past.

DREW WILEY · Tuesday at 2:45 PM

Gosh knows how many papers I've tried over the decades. For the moment, I've settled on having both MGWT and MG Cooltone in my lab. Both are excellent Ilford products, but are getting almost unbearably expensive compared to just a few year ago. Sign of the times.

I've never gotten Foma products to tone in a manner I like. Amidol won't help cool the tone much; and Chinese amidol is hell to work with.

Milpool · Tuesday at 2:50 PM

If this helps at all, the compound to add to any developer to coolify papers is PMT (Phenyl-mercaptotetrazole) (CAS # 86-93-1). You can either buy the dry compound from Bellini (via Freestyle) or buy it in pre-mixed liquid form as Moersch Finisher Blue. It is used in very small amounts. Formulary also used to sell it pre-mixed in methanol but no longer.

John Wiegerink said:
Oh, I have no problem with the look of Foma Fomabrom paper or the way they act contrast wise, but just think it's a tad warm and would like to know how to "cool" it down someway. I even ordered some Chinese Amidol to play with Fomabrom and will see if I can get a slightly cooler look. I don't think the Amidol will help, but it's worth a try. Next might be a very light/short run in a blue toner?
Paul,
I haven't tried any of the Fomatone papers yet, but when the darkroom is in full swing I plan on it. Unless I find something I like much better in the meantime. I realize that darkroom printing took a big hit when scanning and inkjet printing finally improved enough for critical printers. I do also scan and print with both dye and pigment inks, but while the prints really are nice I prefer using my enlarger. I find darkroom work to be a very good stress reliever and digital not so much. Just me of course.

John Wiegerink · Tuesday at 3:06 PM

Milpool said:
If this helps at all, the compound to add to any developer to coolify papers is PMT (Phenyl-mercaptotetrazole) (CAS # 86-93-1). You can either buy the dry compound from Bellini (via Freestyle) or buy it in pre-mixed liquid form as Moersch Finisher Blue. It is used in very small amounts. Formulary also used to sell it pre-mixed in methanol but no longer.

Yes, I've heard of using PMT, but never bought any to try. Might be worth a shot and will have to check on buying some. I think, for me anyway, Foma and Ilford are the only two brands I want to use to find exactly what works for me and the look I like. I hate some of these "fly by night" films and papers since you get hooked on a paper or film and "BINGO" it's gone the next day, never to be seen again. I thought Oriental VC would be around forever, but nope. Same for Adox MCC 110 paper. I want to get hooked on a paper that's going to be around for a while.

GregY · Tuesday at 3:19 PM

John Wiegerink said:
Yes, I've heard of using PMT, but never bought any to try. Might be worth a shot and will have to check on buying some. I think, for me anyway, Foma and Ilford are the only two brands I want to use to find exactly what works for me and the look I like. I hate some of these "fly by night" films and papers since you get hooked on a paper or film and "BINGO" it's gone the next day, never to be seen again. I thought Oriental VC would be around forever, but nope. Same for Adox MCC 110 paper. I want to get hooked on a paper that's going to be around for a while.

JW...I want a paper 'I get hooked on'...... to be around for a long while.
Let's see:
Azo, Lodima, Agfa Brovira, Guillemot Brilliant, Fortezo, Forte Polygrade WT, Adox....

John Wiegerink · Tuesday at 3:41 PM

GregY said:
JW...I want a paper 'I get hooked on'...... to be around for a long while.
Let's see:
Azo, Lodima, Agfa Brovira, Guillemot Brilliant, Fortezo, Forte Polygrade WT, Adox....

Oh my, I forgot a paper I really, really liked. Forte Polygrade was a very good paper for that time frame. I think it was better than what Kodak had to offer when it came to a VC paper. The Polywarmtone was very nice also.

GregY · Tuesday at 3:45 PM

John Wiegerink said:
Oh my, I forgot a paper I really, really liked. Forte Polygrade was a very good paper for that time frame. I think it was better than what Kodak had to offer when it came to a VC paper. The Polywarmtone was very nice also.

I agree.... Forte was my #1 for enlarging... both poylgrade & wt. Unfortunately it fogged badly over time. I was given an opened box of 100. Seemed like a lottery win for a moment until i processed the first sheet

John Wiegerink · Tuesday at 4:22 PM

GregY said:
I agree.... Forte was my #1 for enlarging... both poylgrade & wt. Unfortunately it fogged badly over time. I was given an opened box of 100. Seemed like a lottery win for a moment until i processed the first sheet

Keeping quality is one reason I want a paper that will be around for a while. I've had hit and miss luck with keeping some papers due to heavy or uneven fog problems. I thought it was due to some papers having been "developer incorporated" , but found that it didn't seem to be that. I had some old Ilford Galerie graded paper and Oriental VC that kept very well, but many others didn't. I have no idea on the keeping qualities or shelf life of the different Foma papers. I have a full box of Kodak Elite 8X10, which is a very fine heavy weight paper, but even kept in cool storage it has pretty heavy fog. I wish I could use this paper, but I've had no luck decreasing the fog level enough to make it useable for enlarging.

Doremus Scudder · Wednesday at 1:44 PM

John Wiegerink said:
So, are you finding the Foma papers slightly on the warm side too or is it just me?

I found the image tone of Fomabrom 111 to be rather neutral. It was the whites that were a bit yellower than Ilford MG papers (I use Classic mostly). I assume that that is simply because the Fomabrom emulsion itself is a bit yellower. From what I understand, the paper base is the same. I've moved from Fomabrom 111 to Ilford largely for that reason. Otherwise, I found the Fomabrom to be a really fine paper.

Doremus

koraks · Wednesday at 3:15 PM

Doremus Scudder said:
From what I understand, the paper base is the same.

I'm not so sure about that; AFAIK the surface texture of Ilford is a little different and that can only be due to a difference in the actual paper base, since the thin emulsion layer simply conforms to the paper (baryta) surface. It is very well possible that Ilford uses a gelatin that's less yellow than Foma's, which would easily cause slight differences in whiteness.

Paul Howell · Wednesday at 3:34 PM

I use B&H and Ultrafine house RC papers for work prints and Foma FB for presentation. I use Dektol and its many clones along with Clayton paper developer.

logan2z · Wednesday at 4:45 PM

koraks said:
AFAIK the surface texture of Ilford is a little different

They appear quite a bit different to me, and I actually prefer the texture of Ilford's paper. But as others have mentioned, the price of Ilford papers is getting a bit out of hand and I may end up moving to Foma Variant 111 once I use up my stash of MG Classic Fiber.

thinkbrown · Wednesday at 5:11 PM

I'm a huge fan of fomaspeed 313. The velvet texture is far and away my favorite. I've also been using a roll of 5" Kodak polycontrast III that I picked up on eBay for 5x7 prints and that's pretty nice stuff.

I've mostly been developing in id78, though I've been doing some experiments recently with using parodinal 1:20 as a paper developer which seems to yield surprisingly good results.

Photo Printing Paper for enlarging and not Inkjet........

John Wiegerink

koraks

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miha

John Wiegerink

Milpool

John Wiegerink

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retina_restoration

Milpool

John Wiegerink

Rick A

GregY

DREW WILEY

Milpool

John Wiegerink

GregY

John Wiegerink

GregY

John Wiegerink

Doremus Scudder

koraks

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Paul Howell

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Photo Printing Paper for enlarging and not Inkjet........

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