Photo-Flo - Necessary to soak?

Doremus Scudder · Feb 22, 2016

peter k. said:
With sheet film this is no problem for me, as I to have hard water, I just soak it for a short time in a separate mixed bottle of PhotoFlo in distilled water that's large enough to take 4x5. But for 35mm or MF film.. I've found that the PhotoFlo gums up the plastic real and ball bearings when I have left it in there in the past to soak. I always clean with a tooth brush the reels after developing, but I've have had less of a problem loading the real, when I stopped soaking it in PhotoFlo, but just see-saw it through, but some times I can see hard water spots on the film.
I have no other idea how to do it with roll film other than see-sawing it, but you have to keep at it long enough.

You can split the steps: 1. soak in distilled water without wetting agent with the film on the reels. This will keep your reels clean and still diffuse out minerals. 2. a short 20-30 second soak in distilled water and PhotoFlo to break the surface tension of the water and aid drying.

In defense of those who use more approximate methods of measuring PhotoFlo: Kodak recommends using the bottle cap as a measure for smaller amounts. For the cap on my size bottles, "one capful makes 20 fl. oz." By extension, 3/4 of a capful would be 15 oz., just about right for a single reel 120 tank, and so forth. I myself use about half a capful to 500ml of distilled water, intentionally mixing a little more dilute than the Kodak recommendation... and, I do know what I'm doing

Best,

Doremus

Xmas · Feb 23, 2016

Doremus Scudder said:
You can split the steps: 1. soak in distilled water without wetting agent with the film on the reels. This will keep your reels clean and still diffuse out minerals. 2. a short 20-30 second soak in distilled water and PhotoFlo to break the surface tension of the water and aid drying.

In defense of those who use more approximate methods of measuring PhotoFlo: Kodak recommends using the bottle cap as a measure for smaller amounts. For the cap on my size bottles, "one capful makes 20 fl. oz." By extension, 3/4 of a capful would be 15 oz., just about right for a single reel 120 tank, and so forth. I myself use about half a capful to 500ml of distilled water, intentionally mixing a little more dilute than the Kodak recommendation... and, I do know what I'm doing

Best,

Doremus

Xmas · Feb 23, 2016

No you don't need to soak.

But if you have sufficiently hard water photo flow alone won't avoid calcium carbonate deposits.

You have options of

Demineralised rinse with trace of film surfactant or film squeegee or both.

My faucet water has flecs of calcium carbonate from turbalance but I only bother with squeegee after drip of photo flow in final in tank Ilford archival wash never get little balls to stick.

YMMV

If you get marks load into tank again and start over, don't try mechanical means... Fresh stop bath and rinse is best...

RalphLambrecht · Feb 23, 2016

bvy said:
With Photo-Flo, or any wetting agent, is it necessary to actually soak the film in the solution -- i.e. let it sit, with or without agitation, for 30 seconds or more? If I rinse the film with distilled water, remove it from the reel, and then gently pull it through the Photo-Flo solution in a separate container, is that sufficient?

I'm also considering using some ratio of isopropyl alcohol and water as a final rinse. This is appealing because I could do it right on the reel. (I know I can use Photo-Flo on the reel, but I'm wanting to get away from that practice.)

I soak in Photoflow for one minute and finish up with a one minute soak in distilled water.I tried 25% alcohol for a while but it dries the film almost too quick and create an avoidable curl.I stopped that practice because I was afraid the alcohol coul cause some cracking in the gelatine surface.distilled water works fine but shouldn't be reused too often.

Gerald C Koch · Feb 25, 2016

The purpose of the Photo Flo is to reduce the surface tension of the water on the film surface. Soaking in this case buys nothing. The water will then sheet off the film when you hang it up. If you can leave the film on the reel wiggle it briefly and then remove and hang it up. Typically you use 2-4 drops of PF for each 8 oz of water. Using too much will leave a greasy residue on the film when it dries.

Peter Schrager · Feb 26, 2016

Wow..I'm in shock and awe on how a non subject like photo-flo can take up 2 pages...
a little capful in 32 oz of distilled water...or as Fred Picker would say try it!!
best to all of my fellow compatriots here on APUG; may you have photo-flo dreams!!
peter

Gerald C Koch · Feb 26, 2016

I use the final photo-flo bath more of a final soak.

Photo-Flo will do nothing to remove hypo from the film. It won't work like HCA. If you have washed the film correctly then that is all you need to do, Soaking will accomplish nothing and could damage the film if the total wet time is too long. Were not making beans here.

True modern emulsions are already pre-hardened. If it didn't work film manufacturers wouldn't do it. Using an alum based hardening fixer WILL slow the fixing time, increase the washing time and can result in less than archival permanence.

Here is Ilford's method.

http://www.ilfordphoto.com/Webfiles/2011427111531653.pdf

RalphLambrecht · Feb 26, 2016

Sirius Glass said:
30 to 60 seconds is more than enough. Isopropyl alcohol and water as a final rinse is unnecessary.

Yep

RalphLambrecht · Feb 26, 2016

jnanian said:
no worries bill.
i didn't really see it as misrepresentation &c

but just the same, i wanted to lay it on the line
.. in case someone read I use a few drops,
get bad films and suggest others
do the same because I don't care.
cause I do care ... both about what comes out of
my lab&scamera and what might come out of someone else's.
if you read other threads regarding photo flo you will see there are many
people who just use a drop or 2, whose bottle lasts nearly a lifetime
and who don't have trouble with streaky sticky negatives.
teachers and mentors i have had always said you just need a couple/few drops
and wheni hear of people using larger concentrations or adding other stuff into
the photo flo it doesn't make me cringe
but it is just something i have never done and never plan on doing.
to each their own !

cheers!

a drop or two is plenty.You know when it is too much.It starts foaming or leaves streaks on the negatives.Sometimes less is more.In my opinion,a minimal amount of photo flow with a subsequent distilled water rinse is best.

Photo-Flo - Necessary to soak?

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