Photo-Flo - Necessary to soak?

bvy · Feb 20, 2016

With Photo-Flo, or any wetting agent, is it necessary to actually soak the film in the solution -- i.e. let it sit, with or without agitation, for 30 seconds or more? If I rinse the film with distilled water, remove it from the reel, and then gently pull it through the Photo-Flo solution in a separate container, is that sufficient?

I'm also considering using some ratio of isopropyl alcohol and water as a final rinse. This is appealing because I could do it right on the reel. (I know I can use Photo-Flo on the reel, but I'm wanting to get away from that practice.)

DWThomas · Feb 20, 2016

I normally take it off the reel and put clips on it, see-sawing (yo-yo-ing?) it through the Photo-Flo solution for 30 seconds. Somehow (probably in a past photographic life!) I got that as the "right thing to do" and it's simple enough I've not bothered to experiment on what I might or might not get away with.

Sirius Glass · Feb 20, 2016

30 to 60 seconds is more than enough. Isopropyl alcohol and water as a final rinse is unnecessary.

Doremus Scudder · Feb 21, 2016

It depends what you're using the final step with PhotoFlo for. If, like me, your water is hard, then you want a distilled water/wetting agent final soak for several minutes to ensure that minerals in the emulsion get leached back out into the distilled water so as not to leave deposits on the film when drying.

If your water is soft, then you just need to break the surface tension of the water for easier drying; 30 seconds will do the job just fine.

Doremus

MattKing · Feb 21, 2016

To aid in the accuracy of dilution, I make up a stock solution of one part Photo-flo and seven parts isopropyl alcohol. That stock solution keeps well.

Before use, I then dilute that stock solution one part stock and 24 parts water. Our local tap water is excellent, so I use that. Distilled water would work at least as well.

It is much easier to get a consistent and accurate 1:200 dilution this way, and the highly diluted isopropyl alcohol aids the drying very slightly. Most important though, the alcohol stops the growth of anything unwanted in the stock solution.

peter k. · Feb 21, 2016

Doremus Scudder said:
It depends what you're using the final step with PhotoFlo for. If, like me, your water is hard, then you want a distilled water/wetting agent final soak for several minutes to ensure that minerals in the emulsion get leached back out into the distilled water so as not to leave deposits on the film when drying.

If your water is soft, then you just need to break the surface tension of the water for easier drying; 30 seconds will do the job just fine.

Doremus

With sheet film this is no problem for me, as I to have hard water, I just soak it for a short time in a separate mixed bottle of PhotoFlo in distilled water that's large enough to take 4x5. But for 35mm or MF film.. I've found that the PhotoFlo gums up the plastic real and ball bearings when I have left it in there in the past to soak. I always clean with a tooth brush the reels after developing, but I've have had less of a problem loading the real, when I stopped soaking it in PhotoFlo, but just see-saw it through, but some times I can see hard water spots on the film.
I have no other idea how to do it with roll film other than see-sawing it, but you have to keep at it long enough.

mgb74 · Feb 21, 2016

MattKing said:
To aid in the accuracy of dilution, I make up a stock solution of one part Photo-flo and seven parts isopropyl alcohol. That stock solution keeps well.

Just a comment on isopropyl alcohol. I seen concentrations of 70-99% in the drug store. Occasionally even 50% in discount stores. I don't know if the % would make a material difference in your formula (at least between the most common 70% and 91%).

Wayne · Feb 21, 2016

I never measure Photo-Flo. I splash a drop or 4 into the running water (to mix it) in developing tanks or trays if I'm developing sheet film, and turn the water off, agitate and soak briefly. Never had a problem in 40 years.

removed account4 · Feb 21, 2016

Wayne said:
I never measure Photo-Flo. I splash a drop or 4 into the running water (to mix it) in developing tanks or trays if I'm developing sheet film, and turn the water off, agitate and soak briefly. Never had a problem in 40 years.

same here,
a film reel tube filled with water, a few drops
drag the reels through its few times .. dislodge the bubbles,
Wolff off the foam and hang .. sheet film few drops in the tray
shuffle/pull from the bottom to the top, flip over, hang ..
never had trouble. maybe I'm lucky cause my water isn't mineralized.
I never use distilled water for anything....
and while I have seen and heard of people making a giant tankard of dilute photoflo
it always seemed like a lot of extra work since it only requires a drop or 2

Wayne · Feb 21, 2016

Hurray for calculated laziness!

removed account4 · Feb 21, 2016

exactly !

Bruce Osgood · Feb 21, 2016

Our member PE once said in a post along these lines that if you use enough Photo Flo to foam in running water you've used too much.

MattKing · Feb 21, 2016

mgb74 said:
Just a comment on isopropyl alcohol. I seen concentrations of 70-99% in the drug store. Occasionally even 50% in discount stores. I don't know if the % would make a material difference in your formula (at least between the most common 70% and 91%).

No likely difference, at least in the 70-99% range. The main purpose of it is to dilute the Photo-flo to a more easily measured stock solution. The secondary purpose of preventing the growth of stuff in the stock will be accomplished just as well by the 70% stuff as the 99% stuff.

When everything is said and done when the working solution has been prepared, there is only 3 ml of Photo-flo concentrate and 21 ml of the alcohol in 600 ml of working solution.

Bill Burk · Feb 21, 2016

Bruce Osgood said:
Our member PE once said in a post along these lines that if you use enough Photo Flo to foam in running water you've used too much.

He's also said you shouldn't use ordinary dish soap for the job.

My routine is just one pass through the Photo Flo tray and hang up fully wet and dripping.

I usually move the furniture that's underneath the drying rack and cover my enlarger with a towel so they won't get wet.

Bruce Osgood · Feb 21, 2016

Bill Burk said:
He's also said you shouldn't use ordinary dish soap for the job.

My routine is just one pass through the Photo Flo tray and hang up fully wet and dripping.

I usually move the furniture that's underneath the drying rack and cover my enlarger with a towel so they won't get wet.

I think that's all it takes. I am able to drip into a sink so there's little mess.

Sirius Glass · Feb 21, 2016

Wayne said:
I never measure Photo-Flo. I splash a drop or 4 into the running water (to mix it) in developing tanks or trays if I'm developing sheet film, and turn the water off, agitate and soak briefly. Never had a problem in 40 years.

jnanian said:
same here,
a film reel tube filled with water, a few drops
drag the reels through its few times .. dislodge the bubbles,
Wolff off the foam and hang .. sheet film few drops in the tray
shuffle/pull from the bottom to the top, flip over, hang ..
never had trouble. maybe I'm lucky cause my water isn't mineralized.
I never use distilled water for anything....
and while I have seen and heard of people making a giant tankard of dilute photoflo
it always seemed like a lot of extra work since it only requires a drop or 2

Wayne said:
Hurray for calculated laziness!

jnanian said:
exactly !

Then do not bother to post when you have problems with sticky negatives or streaks on the negatives. Eventually you will get what you deserve. What makes you think that you are smarter than the film companies' chemists?

Bill Burk · Feb 21, 2016

Sirius Glass said:
Then do not bother to post when you have problems with sticky negatives or streaks on the negatives.

If you know jnanian... you will never hear him complain about sticky, streaky negatives.

Now me, I measure things and write things down so if something works I have a chance to get it right again in the future. I use a tiny syringe the vet gave me for medicine for our rat. But I like MattKing's idea of mixing a stock solution with a bit of alcohol.

Sirius Glass · Feb 21, 2016

The warning is for the newbies who read the "I do not follow manufacturers' instructions because I know better than anyone else" posts. The offenders are "way beyond help".

Bill Burk · Feb 21, 2016

Sirius Glass said:
The warning is for the newbies who read the "I do not follow manufacturers' instructions because I know better than anyone else" posts. The offenders are "way beyond help".

Fair enough.

They call it Photo Flo 200 for a reason.

Wayne · Feb 21, 2016

Sirius Glass said:
The warning is for the newbies who read the "I do not follow manufacturers' instructions because I know better than anyone else" posts. The offenders are "way beyond help".

I did not give instructions. I simply related what I do, with no expectation or desire for anyone to follow me. Now put on your man pants.

removed account4 · Feb 21, 2016

Bill Burk said:
If you know jnanian... you will never hear him complain about sticky, streaky negatives.

Now me, I measure things and write things down so if something works I have a chance to get it right again in the future. I use a tiny syringe the vet gave me for medicine for our rat. But I like MattKing's idea of mixing a stock solution with a bit of alcohol.

hey bill
i've processed film the same exact way since 1981.
i've never had sticky streaky negatives, not once.
i've probably processed thousands of rolls of film and in the past IDK 10 years alone, probably 5000 sheets of film.
film processed is both for myself and for a busy portrait studio not to mention
sheets and rolls of film that are either in state archives or the HABS collection,
at the library of congress in washington DC. and film for private clients ...
i've never had trouble with streaky or sticky negatives and if i did, i would never suggest someone do something to potenitally ruin their film (or suggest something i wouldn't ever do myself...)
my descriptions &c have always been via personal experience,
and if not my experience, i typically say that i have heard of people doing "xyz" and/but never done it myself.

YMMV

Jim Noel · Feb 21, 2016

bvy said:
With Photo-Flo, or any wetting agent, is it necessary to actually soak the film in the solution -- i.e. let it sit, with or without agitation, for 30 seconds or more? If I rinse the film with distilled water, remove it from the reel, and then gently pull it through the Photo-Flo solution in a separate container, is that sufficient?

I'm also considering using some ratio of isopropyl alcohol and water as a final rinse. This is appealing because I could do it right on the reel. (I know I can use Photo-Flo on the reel, but I'm wanting to get away from that practice.)

If you use Photo Flo with the film on the reel , sooner or later you will be wondering why the edges of your film are overdeveloped. PF is a catalyst and soon builds up on the reels causing the over-development.

Sirius Glass · Feb 21, 2016

Bill Burk · Feb 21, 2016

jnanian said:
hey bill
i've processed film the same exact way since 1981.
i've never had sticky streaky negatives, not once.

Sorry when I thought I was sticking up for you I inadvertently misrepresented you.

At least you wouldn't get "sticky" with a few drops... You'd have to overdo it.

I used less than the recommended amount for a long time. And I occasionally did have negatives with residue. So I've been keeping track and lately haven't had the problem.

I think the key to my recent success is mixing Photo Flo with filtered (reverse osmosis) water. In the past when I had residue, I just added drops of Photo Flo to the wash tank when I was done washing. That was unfiltered tap water. Whether it is the concentration or the water, I don't know for sure.

But I'm not that good in the lab. I still get scratches on tray processed 4x5 film, so I won't volunteer to develop anybody else's film. I wouldn't want to say - "sure send me your film so I can scratch it up"..

removed account4 · Feb 21, 2016

no worries bill.
i didn't really see it as misrepresentation &c

but just the same, i wanted to lay it on the line
.. in case someone read I use a few drops,
get bad films and suggest others
do the same because I don't care.
cause I do care ... both about what comes out of
my lab&scamera and what might come out of someone else's.
if you read other threads regarding photo flo you will see there are many
people who just use a drop or 2, whose bottle lasts nearly a lifetime
and who don't have trouble with streaky sticky negatives.
teachers and mentors i have had always said you just need a couple/few drops
and wheni hear of people using larger concentrations or adding other stuff into
the photo flo it doesn't make me cringe
but it is just something i have never done and never plan on doing.
to each their own !

cheers!

Photo-Flo - Necessary to soak?

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Photo-Flo - Necessary to soak?

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