Phenidone handling when the packaging sucks

StoneNYC · Jul 16, 2013

Hey guys, so I'm attempting my first real "from scratch" developer.

It includes Phenidone.

I've been told its highly toxic and to be very careful. The formula only requires a little bit so I got the small amount, which ended up coming ins baggie... Not a container like everything else. So this is a sealed Baggie but not exactly re-usable. So what do I store it in since it didn't come in a bottle like everyone else?

How concerned should I be that I have to move it from one container to another?

I am also told to only work with it outside because the dust could get on other things in the house, so I would like to ere on the side of caution and do this right.

Thanks guys...

~Stone | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk

Photo Engineer · Jul 16, 2013

Stone, you have been misinformed. It is not all that toxic. Handle with care, and you will be OK.

PE

StoneNYC · Jul 16, 2013

Photo Engineer said:
Stone, you have been misinformed. It is not all that toxic. Handle with care, and you will be OK.

PE

Thanks PE but what about storage from the Baggie.... Lol

~Stone | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk

Wayne · Jul 16, 2013

The thing to do is mix up a concentrated solution, for example 2 grams per 100 ml glycol. Now you add 10 ml of that solution to every recipe that calls for .2 grams phenidone. That one 100ml bottle will give you 10 liters of that recipe. And you don't have to muss with powder again for a long time. It will keep for years in propylene glycol. Different folks mix different concentrations, but you don't want it TOO concentrated or you have to measure very small amounts. 2-5% is probably best. I like 2%.

Wayne · Jul 16, 2013

And like PE said its not that toxic. Wear a mask, weigh/measure/mix it outside if you want, and commence to not worry.

StoneNYC · Jul 17, 2013

Thanks Wayne, I'll look into getting some glycol then, I'm looking and there's different kinds of glycol... there's Polyethylene Glycol Which looks like it might be a powder, Propylene Glycol which looks to be a liquid, and Diethylene Glycol which also looks to be a liquid...

any of those the right one?

And this glycol won't interfere with any other chemicals I might mix it with?

Thanks.

dorff · Jul 17, 2013

StoneNYC said:
Thanks Wayne, I'll look into getting some glycol then, I'm looking and there's different kinds of glycol... there's Polyethylene Glycol Which looks like it might be a powder, Propylene Glycol which looks to be a liquid, and Diethylene Glycol which also looks to be a liquid...

any of those the right one?

And this glycol won't interfere with any other chemicals I might mix it with?

Thanks.

You could use diethylene glycol, or alternatively plain isopropanol. Most formulas use phenidone in the 0.1 - 0.2 g/L sort of quantities, so a 2% phenidone stock solution is used typically in 5 - 10 ml per liter of working developer.

The phenidone that you have, is it Dimezone S? That would be the best form, to my knowledge. I cannot obtain it cheaply where I am, but you guys in the US can order from B&H, Photo Formulary etc. 10 grams goes very far indeed. You can use it in ascorbic acid or PQ type formulas, and it really rocks for the amount one uses.

StoneNYC · Jul 17, 2013

This is the formula, I got it from a guy on RFF when I was researching the best way to develop Kodak XX because I like the way it looks and can be shot at 400 which I'm hoping to make my replacement for Neopan400.

"RD-201: Phenidone-Pyrogallol true two bath
Hello

Phenidone with pyrogallol is superadditive and allow to make true two bath developer. Bath A have low acidic pH and developing start only in bath B. Developer increase speed by 1 stop and produce very sharp images.

RD-201 developer
Bath A
Sodium sulfite 50g
Phenidone 0,2g
Pyrogallol 6g
Sodium metabisulfite 6g
Water 1l

Bath B
Sodium sulfite 30g
Sodium carbonate 15g
Water 1l

Developing time 3min in each bath. "

So that's what I'll be doing. I think the pyrogallol is also "dangerous" right?

I really liked the results of the images shown and want to give it a try. Also most of the chemistry for this formula is also for the ECN-2 color neg developer I need so if this doesn't work out I can use the stuff for that so it won't be wasted.

Any other tips will be appreciated.

~Stone | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk

Wayne · Jul 17, 2013

StoneNYC said:
Thanks Wayne, I'll look into getting some glycol then, I'm looking and there's different kinds of glycol... there's Polyethylene Glycol Which looks like it might be a powder, Propylene Glycol which looks to be a liquid, and Diethylene Glycol which also looks to be a liquid...

any of those the right one?

And this glycol won't interfere with any other chemicals I might mix it with?

Thanks.

I use propylene glycol, which is cheap and readily available at feed stores and pharmacies. I'll let the chemists answer your last question, but AFAIK it does not interact or interfere with anything in photographic formulas.

Just don't make the mistake of a recent poster and try to mix too concentrated a solution which would be difficult to measure anyway.

jochen · Jul 17, 2013

Hello, when handling chemicals it is helpful to use these thin nitrile gloves which are used by doctors for examinations. You keep the feeling and they prevent you from getting stains and allergic reactions. You should get them at your drugstore they are not expensive.

StoneNYC · Jul 17, 2013

Michael R 1974 said:
Looks like it is intended to be a non-staining Pyro developer. So why Pyro? Sorry that was off topic

Pyrogallol ("Pyro") is the dangerous chemical in this mix, not Phenidone. Pyro is toxic. Be careful when mixing it.

Jochen, I always use nitrile gloves even just developing.

Michael, because I like the end result look and I don't like stained negs (or don't want to deal with any issues with printing/scanning.

~Stone | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk

TheFlyingCamera · Jul 17, 2013

Stone- unless you have a shit scanner and shit software, there really aren't issues with scanning stained negatives. Almost everything I've posted in the last six months that's black-and-white was developed in Pyrocat HD, a staining developer, and all posts have been negative scans.

Gerald C Koch · Jul 17, 2013

Phenidone should ALWAYS be stored in a glass jar. It is easily damaged by heat and moisture.

StoneNYC · Jul 17, 2013

Gerald C Koch said:
Phenidone should ALWAYS be stored in a glass jar. It is easily damaged by heat and moisture.

Thanks, why they sent it in a plastic bag I'll never know...

And everyone, including flying camera, I'm going to try this, I know you all love the stain thing but I want to try this first. Thanks.

~Stone | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk

Hexavalent · Jul 17, 2013

If you spill any, just snort it

johnielvis · Jul 17, 2013

Hexavalent said:
If you spill any, just snort it

please don't snort chemicals or take the advice of irresponsible people.

Gerald C Koch · Jul 17, 2013

If you snort phenidone the visions of your trip will all be in black & white.

StoneNYC · Jul 17, 2013

johnielvis said:
please don't snort chemicals or take the advice of irresponsible people.

Besides alcohol I really don't do any drugs, I don't even smoke pot, the worst I do is breathe fixer in through a chemical breather mask LOL

But yes, I'm sure some foolish person might follow that advice, but at the risk if sounding like a horrible human being, good, let them do it, survival of the fittest, they can have a Darwin Award...

~Stone | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk

John Wiegerink · Jul 20, 2013

Snorting......................

johnielvis said:
please don't snort chemicals or take the advice of irresponsible people.

I have snorted photo-chems and must say, with proof, that it can and is hazardous to ones health. My normal home darkroom is setup perfectly for every step. Including ventilation! Where I ran into trouble was the little make-shift one I established at my cottage, which I now have closed. The one at the cottage had no ventilation and was in a small room in the basement. The trouble began about 3 or 4 years ago. I had about ten rolls of 120 B&W film to process and had to go north to the cottage for 2 weeks. So, I took the film with me, but was very low on developer. I thought what the hey, I'll just bring my chemicals along and mix up there. Problem solved? No, problem just starting! I had my normal stuff like Sodium Sulfite, Potassium Bromide, Sodium and Potassium Carb, etc. I also had the "good stuff", Pyrocatechin, Phenidone, Metol, Hydroquinone and a few other odds and ends. Well, I mixed up three different developers so I'd have a normal stock up there. I'm not going to say what they were, because I don't know for sure which one or chemical was responsible. Anyway, about 3 or 4 days after mixing I noticed my nose was running more than normal ( over 60 yrs old it seems to run a little more anyway), but didn't pay it no heed. I about 5 days my nose seemed to still be running only now it was becoming raw and sore. By about the 7th day I had developed a sore on the inside tip of each nostril. Now I started trying to figure out what the heck was going on. I started back tracking and came to the conclusion that I had inhaled something in that little makeshift darkroom. I went to a med station up near my cottage and told them everything and they seemed to agree with my findings. It took way more than two months for my nose to heal up and it was not fun. Those sores would form scabs and then the scabs would break off when I would blow my nose. Results, bloody nose. I don't know if it was the Phenidone I was heating in Glycol or the Metol or the Pyrocateghin. Heck, it could even be the Hydroquinone. I learned my lesson the hard way and now where a mask even in my well vented home darkroom. One thing they said at that med station was that now I might be much more prone to the same chem again. Well, I ain't going through that again if I can ever help it. When you have one foot on a banana peel and the other sliding into a grave you don't want to make that banana peel any slippery than it already is. JohnW :Sorry, but snorting is no joking matter to me.

Ian Grant · Jul 20, 2013

Gerald C Koch said:
Phenidone should ALWAYS be stored in a glass jar. It is easily damaged by heat and moisture.

The last batches of Phenidone I've bought came in plastic containers and it seems to keep perfectly - one batch is at least 10 yeras old and there's no difference to the 1962 Phenidone I used (made by Ilford). Phenidone keeps well and lasts over 50 years.

Ian

Kirk Keyes · Jul 20, 2013

The first bottle of Phenidone I bought in 1983 was from Ilford and it was plastic. It is still fine.

Ian Grant · Jul 20, 2013

Kirk Keyes said:
The first bottle of Phenidone I bought in 1983 was from Ilford and it was plastic. It is still fine.

There's a lot of disinformation about Phenidone and it's keeping properties. Whether as a compond or as a made up solution the keeping properties are excellent, but in solution it outlasts Metol by a huge factor.

Ilford's Autophen developer, also known as the Axford Kendall photo-finishing developer had an indefinite life replenished. It was a PQ variant of Ilfords ID-11 (D76) but unlkke the MQ formula wasn't prone to sudden death due to bromide etc build up.

Ian

Gerald C Koch · Jul 20, 2013

All I can say is that I have a plastic jar of black tar that once was phenidone. A glass jar of phenidone that is far older remains fine. The high humidity and temperatures in Florida may be the difference.

Gerald C Koch · Jul 20, 2013

Michael R 1974 said:
This is interesting. If Phenidone keeps well in solution as Ian says, why do formulas like POTA have a reputation for being extremely short lived?

Phenidone hydrolyses easily in solution particularly alkaline solution. There are at least two products formed a red form and a blue form both free radicals. The presence of reducing agents such as other developing agents like hydroquinone help stabilise it. Presence of the red form is used to quantitatively measure the amount of phenidone in developers. There is an extended discussion in Mason.

Photo Engineer · Jul 20, 2013

Due to the instability of Phenidone in alkali, Kodak was converting or had converted all developers to Dimezoen or better still to Dimezone-S to avoid hydrolysis.

PE

Phenidone handling when the packaging sucks

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