Phenidone developers - order of addition?

pdeeh · Apr 26, 2016

The last time I made a Phenidone-based developer (ID-67), I mixed the ingredients in the following order:

Phenidone 0.5 g
Sodium Sulphite (anh) 50 g
Hydroquinone 12 g
Sodium Carbonate (anh) 60 g
Potassium Bromide 2 g
Benzotriazole 1% soln 20 ml
Water to 1 litre

What I noticed (I don;t recall seeing it before when I've made this developer) was that immediately on adding the Phenidone to the water, the water turned pink, even though I had added a spoonful of sulfite to the water and dissolved that first (as often suggested for metol developers, as an oxygen scavenger.)

My rudimentary knowledge of photo-chemistry suggests that this means the Phenidone was immediately undergoing oxidisation, and thus I wondered to what extent this might be problematic.

The pink remained even after adding the remainder of the sulfite, but disappeared immediately upon adding the smallest amount of hydroquinone (again, my rudimentary understanding suggests this is the result of the hydroquinone regenerating the oxidised Phenidone in solution).

Any comments from one of our chymists?

Need I be concerned?
Will the (presumed) oxidisation of the Phenidone likely make a significant difference to the developer's properties?
Would it be better to add the Phenidone after the HQ?

(Comments along the lines of "Don't bother, just buy a gallon of Dektol from B&H" won't be considered useful contributions by the way )

Ian Grant · Apr 26, 2016

That's not a problem just carry on as you are

I make up a lot of Phenidone based developers and that pink colour isn't an issue. My main print developer is ID-78 (Ilford Warmtone developer - slight variation of ID-67) if you see my posts in the Resources section here or on my website I list how to make a concentrated version.

When you make it up concentrated you replace the Sodium Carbonate with Potassium Carbonate and a small amount of Sodium Hydroxide, it keeps far better and the dilution is the same as commercial PQ Universal and Ilford Warmtone developer (the ID=78 version).

Ian

baachitraka · Apr 26, 2016

You may need just a pinch of Sulfite to dissolve Metol...but I am not sure what is going on here.

pdeeh · Apr 26, 2016

Ian Grant said:
That's not a problem just carry on as you are

thanks Ian.

pdeeh · Apr 26, 2016

Ah yes, you did some tests didn't you. Which was one of the reasons why I thought oxidation was going on, but wasn't sure whether it would be a problem. Which it clearly isn't.

Xmas · Apr 26, 2016

That order is only necessary for metol developers pheodine will readily dissolve after the sulphite, unlike Metol.

See the ID 68 formula.

Anon Ymous · Apr 27, 2016

Xmas said:
That order is only necessary for metol developers pheodine will readily dissolve after the sulphite, unlike Metol.

See the ID 68 formula.

I seriously doubt that Metol is that hard to dissolve in a sulfite solution. I've added Metol in a solution containing 100g/l sulfite and it dissolved easily, but at the proposed 40 to 50°C.

baachitraka · Apr 27, 2016

After all the fun with scratch mixing, D-76/X-tol still wins in terms of consistency and longevity.

@pdeeh How accurate can you weigh Phenidone?

pdeeh · Apr 27, 2016

In general or me personally?

I've got some jeweller's (digital) scales that weigh to the nearest 0.01g (0,01g for you I guess )

Measuring such small quantities does lend itself to imprecision of course, but as I don't use a calibrated and tested film-paper "workflow", or take the sort of photographs or have the sort of aesthetic preoccupations that would drive me towards one, a little batch variation is of no great concern so long as the variation doesn't turn into utter randomness and unpredictability.

Plus I'm interested in subjects I don't properly understand (chemistry being one)

Anon Ymous · Apr 27, 2016

I'm not pdeeh, but I also use some 0,01g resolution scales from ebay. I had access to 0,0001g resolution scales and have calibrated my scales according to them. When weighing few grams the difference between them was very, very low. When weighing fractions of a gram, there was a tiny bit of a difference. A small piece of paper weighing 0,35g in one of them was 0,32 or 0,33g in the other. Honestly, I don't know if this difference is enough to be a problem. Sometimes it might, but I've seen formulae, where it was stated that the amount of the developing agents wasn't that critical and small variations didn't make a difference. Besides, very small quantities of chemicals are easier measured when using solutions of known concentration. For instance, when you want 0,15g of something, then 15ml of a 1% w/v solution would do the trick, probably with better accuracy. In the end, I don't think I will notice such small variations of activity.

Yes, mixing D76/Xtol from a bag is easy, but what if you need something else? What if even that isn't available locally? What if the ready made quantity will go bad because of low usage?

Xmas · Apr 27, 2016

baachitraka said:
After all the fun with scratch mixing, D-76/X-tol still wins in terms of consistency and longevity.

@pdeeh How accurate can you weigh Phenidone?

The PQ analogues are comparable and have less risk of skin problems?

You can scratch mix a MQ if you want?

D76 is a cheap ex cine film developer from '27 no magic?

Proper fixing is way more important?

baachitraka · Apr 27, 2016

I don't know whether their exist any magical concoction. But I like developers that leave lot of stain on highlights.

Commercially Tanol is one.

D-23 is the one I mix and it will develop 6 films/l

Ian Grant · Apr 27, 2016

baachitraka said:
I don't know whether their exist any magical concoction. But I like developers that leave lot of stain on highlights.

Commercially Tanol is one.

D-23 is the one I mix and it will develop 6 films/l

Pyrocat HD is all you need.

Amazingly I push processed HP5 @ 3200 before Xmas and the negative is grain free at quite a large enlargement.

Ian

Gerald C Koch · Apr 27, 2016

As Michael points out sulfite offers rather poor protection to Phenidone. Sodium sulfite and Phenidone solutions will quickly turn magenta showing that some oxidation has occurred. The best time to add the Phenidone is after adding the other developing agent be it hydroquinone or ascorbic acid.

Xmas · Apr 28, 2016

Gerald C Koch said:
As Michael points out sulfite offers rather poor protection to Phenidone. Sodium sulfite and Phenidone solutions will quickly turn magenta showing that some oxidation has occurred. The best time to add the Phenidone is after adding the other developing agent be it hydroquinone or ascorbic acid.

As in ID68 the ID67 formula is a copy and paste of ID2 substituting Phenidone for metol?
http://www.lostlabours.co.uk/photography/formulae/developers/devID68.htm

baachitraka · Apr 28, 2016

I am still curious what benefit do we have with all those chemical combinations than with D-23?

D-23: It is simple and it works. 1l can develop 6-rolls of 135 or 120.

pdeeh · Apr 28, 2016

It's curious how a relatively straightforward technical question so often devolves into a flurry of "my developer is better than your developer" posts ...

baachitraka - I also develop all my films in D23, funnily enough. But it is also convenient to have a litre of something robust and multi-purpose on hand. A litre of ID67 will last a few months in an old water bottle under the sink, and I can use it for my sporadic printing sessions and for the occasional bit of film reversal work where a high contrast FD is needed.

Plus anyone can use anything they like to develop their films. It really only matters to the person doing the developing. No one looking at a photograph really cares whether it was developed in D23, pyro or cat's-pee. Or, if they do, they probably aren't very interested in the photograph itself, just the process.

Ian Grant · Apr 28, 2016

baachitraka said:
I am still curious what benefit do we have with all those chemical combinations than with D-23?

D-23: It is simple and it works. 1l can develop 6-rolls of 135 or 120.

Pyrocat HD: Better sharpness, finer grain, better control of tones etc and economy, negatives that are so easy to print (or scan). 1 litre of Stock diluted will develop 333 rolls of 35mm, 200 rolls of 120m, 600 sheets of 5x4 (more if I used a rotary processor), that's in the tanks I use.

If I used D23 I'd replenish it which is how I used ID-11 (D76) and later Xtol for over 30 years, better economy and also gives the best results..

Ian

Ian Grant · Apr 28, 2016

Michael R 1974 said:
Off topic sort of, but Ian are you aware of any published Phenidone formulas by Agfa?

By Orwo (Agfa) yes, I've not seen any Agfa Gevaert published formulae though although I've the formula for Neutol WA which probably came from a Patent, which is how I know the difference between an Ilford publishe PQ developer and the commercial concentrate. I have 2 Agfa Rezeptes and 1 Orwo from the year after Agfa merged with Gevaert and paid Orwo to stop using the Agfa trade name.

1952

1960

1964 this is a year after the Agfa Gevaert merger and Gevaert had insisted that the new company had sole rights to the Agfa trade name.

So Agfa/Orwo began using Phenidone some time between 1960 and 64. There's no Phenidone developers listed by Gevaert in their 1958 Handbook.

Ian

Ian Grant · Apr 28, 2016

Michael R 1974 said:
Interesting. Thanks for this. I've been working on some stuff with a Phenidone formula from a 1968 Agfa patent (filed in 1965) so I was curious. I'd like to post it on APUG with some notes but not sure how to post articles on the new site.

Sean's has to rebuild the Resources section, it's on his list to do. It may pay to wait.

Agfa-Gevaert revamped and introduced developers soon after the merger, a lot was to do with economics like the changes to Rodinal.

IAn

Xmas · Apr 28, 2016

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/archive/index.php/t-14510.html

Agfa had several eg...

baachitraka · Apr 28, 2016

https://ia802704.us.archive.org/16/items/agfaRezepte/agfaRezepte1.pdf

Agfa uses Potassium Carbonate for most of the formulas.

Ian Grant · Apr 28, 2016

baachitraka said:
https://ia802704.us.archive.org/16/items/agfaRezepte/agfaRezepte1.pdf

Agfa uses Potassium Carbonate for most of the formulas.

So do Ilford and Kodak in liquid concentrates along with Hydroxide to maintain solubility.

Ian

baachitraka · Apr 28, 2016

I will try to get this book. Looks interesting...

nworth · Apr 30, 2016

Metol forms an insoluble adduct with sulfite. That is why you always dissolve it before adding the sulfite. Phenidone does not form that adduct, so you should dissolve the sufite first and then add the developing agents. Phenidone also dissolves much more easily in the slightly alkaline sulfite solution than in water alone.

Phenidone developers - order of addition?

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