Petition now online for Supra Endura

DanielStone

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hey guys,

started this one this morning.

Dead Link Removed

Looking for sponsors as well. APUG, could you step up and give us your support?

Anyone else who might know of a sponsor who would support this, please, lets get them onboard!!!

blessings,

Dan
 
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DanielStone

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how many of you have a fax number? I can fax you a letter I wrote, and I'm in the middle of faxing it to every Calumet and Samys camera location here in the US.

I know there are many other retailers than this, such as Freestyle(I'll be faxing one or two to them soon ).

PM me with your fax number, and I'll fax it to you.

-Dan
 
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DanielStone

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ok, we're at 5 signatures so far, lets get 20 by the end of the day!

let all your friends know!

-Dan
 

MikeSeb

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This is predictable. Happens every time. Big Company, faced with a poorly-selling, money-losing product, discontinues it.

Afficionados of the product---acting on the quaint belief that only BC's ignorance of the heretofore-hidden, massive-yet-stealthy grass-roots affection for the product (ignoring the actual hard fiscal evidence of its dismal sales) prompted the discontinuance---mounts a petition drive to "save" a product no one wanted enough to buy in the first place.

BC either soldiers on a bit longer, hemorrhaging money all the while, until the momentary sales blip born of the petition drive subsides and sales return to an even lower baseline, with the company in worse shape than before. Or BC ignores the petitioners' pleas, and is scourged online and threatened with boycotts for its failure to "support" whatever activity its product enabled.

It's been said many times: the only petition that matters is the cash register, like it or not. If you like a product, buy it and use it. Company management would be insane and derelict to continue wasting its shareholders' resources on money-losing products.

Nothing personal, Dan.
 

frotog

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I spoke to a couple reps in Kodak professional regarding the phasing out of Supra. They acknowledged how important their analogue users are to the overall brand. Contrary to what you think, big business is almost as mindful of brand image as they are the bottom line. Kodak has demonstrated this on a number of occasions since the dawn of the digital revolution with adverts for their traditional materials and the artists who use them (a friend of mine was once featured in a portra nc campaign). This kind of boutique branding is common and it is not unusual for the commodity to be unprofitable in strictly monetary terms. You'll see this with heritage brand products, art books in the publishing world, the majority of small run fashion magazines, etc.
 

BradS

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MikeSeb said:
I'm sure you know better than Kodak....
Click to expand...

I wonder how many of these petitioners have ever worked for a multi-billion dollar a year corporation....let alone run one. I find the whole effort exceedingly naive at best.

Good luck fellas.
 

MattKing

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When you are a corporation like Kodak that sells mostly through a dealer network, it never hurts to have additional end-user input.

It may be that with enough interest, you may see something like the ULF special order for B&W film.

Matt
 

frotog

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BradS said:
I wonder how many of these petitioners have ever worked for a multi-billion dollar a year corporation....let alone run one. I find the whole effort exceedingly naive at best.

Good luck fellas.
Click to expand...

And at worst...? Do you really think that the individuals who are rallying to have their voices heard by a large corporation don't understand this? Your critique reveals nothing other than the Schadenfreude that begat it.
 

hrst

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Mike, Brad, I think that you have badly misunderstood something.

The purpose of this kind of petition is to tell what we want. It is not the same as saying "I know better". No one has claimed to have worked for a multi-billion dollar a year corporation; we are all individual consumers who just use the products. This is completely normal business; client telling what they want to a vendor, and then the vendor makes its decision. There are of course many ways to tell what we want, the most important being what Mike said, buying the products. But it's not the only way in certain situations. We can also talk to the manufacturers, tell them what we want.

So, I think that in fact, your approaches are quite twisted, not our petitioners. This is just communication.
 

MikeSeb

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Greg Davis said:
I'm sorry you aren't passionate enough to fight for analog photography, Mike. I hope you enjoy your digital cameras.
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Ouch! Zowee! Are we in the schoolyard here?

90% of my work is shot on film, but I do "enjoy" my digital camera when it's the right tool for the job. What I enjoy even more is doing useful things---as opposed to empty feel-good gestures like protests and petitions---that might materially advance the cause of analog photography. Things like demonstrating to others via my own work---or so I immodestly hope---what is possible with an analog or hybrid workflow; how such methods can produce work of a beauty and permanence that puts digital to shame; and why others might want to do likewise in their own work. And I buy the materials I need to make it happen, which does my part to keep the manufacturers making those things.

So Greg, you might want to learn more before you pronounce upon anither's "passion". My "passion" is for results, not gestures.
 

hrst

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I've been reading APUG quite actively this year, surfing also through the old threads. The incredible thing here is that there are almost no trolls or troublemakers like on many Finnish internet forums! I really love APUG for this particular reason and that's why I also became a subscriber.

Now I feel that I bumped into the first troublemakers at APUG. It's not about what you think and believe, but about how you treat your fellowmen. Mocking other people, especially when you are wrong to begin with, is just the wrong way to discuss; and if you have nothing to discuss about, then don't post. It keeps APUG a place I want to subscribe in the future, too.

Over and out; thank you.
 
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mikebarger

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There are two points of view on this and they come up every time we go through a realignment of products. Hashing it over hasn't, and won't, chance either sides opinion. I don't think there is a right or wrong side to this issue.

For the record I'm one of the telling a company what products you like is OK, but in the end dollars make the most noise. I've kind of mellowed out that petitioners are going to petition. I'll still fill the freezer with products I use, extra full if they make the realignment list.

Worst case, I'll find a new product/process, even if it is mixing my own chemistry or cutting sheets from rolls.

Speaking of that, think I'll get the hassy out and burn some Tri-X.

Mike
 

frotog

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My sentiments exactly, Mike, and why, independent of this forum, there are prominent artists and printers who are, as I write this, petitioning Kodak to keep this product alive.
 

BradS

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I think you guys might give some consideration to the simple fact that Kodak is a publicly held company with some 268 MILLION shares outstanding. The comapny lost more money (earnings per share) last year than the whole company is currently worth (market cap).

Think for a while about the following....

1) What do you think the share holders want?
2) How do you think an internet petition with 100 (or, even 10000) signers compares to the demands of the share holders?


Suppose for just a moment that a large portion of your personal fortune were tied up in Kodak stock....or, that a majority of your earnings were paid in the form of Kodak stock options....what would you want? and how would that want compare in force to this petition drive.


As consumers, the only vote you have is the dollars you spend. Your time to vote has passed. Get over it and move forward.
 
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MikeSeb

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@Greg, @frotog, et al: I hope the petition helps. Seriously.

@hrst: thank you for the promotion up from "lurker". I suppose @BradS and I will now have to draw straws to see which of us will become "troll" and which, "troublemaker". I do look quite fetching in green....
 

Michael Kadillak

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Eastman Kodak

The fact that Eastman Kodak is still in business is testimony to the fact that they have made tough decisions for the sole purpose of being able to fight another day. Just take a look at the stock price.

The market is in the midst of a necessary consolidation and many many favorite products will cease to exist in order for the business to continue forward. This was the case in the 1930's when Edward Weston was making images and it is the case now. It is never easy but life will go on.

Unless you have an interest in putting large amount of financial resources into the pot to insure your desired outcome you are wasting your time with the petition process. The train has long ago left the station. Find a substitute and/or change your process and move on.

Cheers!
 

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Existing Light

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Existing Light

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Greg Davis said:
It is the amount of gloss on the surface. F is glossy, N is semi-matte.
Click to expand...

That simple, eh? If i had paid more attention, I probably could have figured that out myself :/

Greg Davis said:
There are still boxes of Supra at Kodak that has yet to be distributed, so the material is not gone yet. It may take months or years to sell it all. However, once it is gone, it is gone for good.
Click to expand...

I may have time to save up for a developing tank and a few packs of it before it's all gone.

Just out of curiosity, how does the Supra endura compare to Fuji papers? Is there a Fuji paper that's comparable to Supra Endura?
 

Ken Nadvornick

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Perhaps.

But unless I am somehow mistaken it is, after all, their time to waste, is it not?

Who are we to tell them how they can and cannot waste their time? Not all in the world think alike on every issue. If one disagrees with the content of their petition, simply do not sign it. A win-win situation for all involved.

Ken
 

hrst

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MikeSeb said:
@Greg, @frotog, et al: I hope the petition helps. Seriously.
Click to expand...

This is very nice to hear - seriously.

I suppose @BradS and I will now have to draw straws to see which of us will become "troll" and which, "troublemaker". I do look quite fetching in green....
Click to expand...

Well, only you can decide about yourself; there are no judges. I'm honestly sorry; my intention was not to give a judgement, just to tell you how disappointed I was when I saw some people making fun of the ones making the petition, generally underestimating our intelligence. I've seen that on some photography forums, and after a while, it has led to complete decay in photographic discussions. Probably I'm just oversensitive and paranoid for this kind of things, as this certainly isn't your nor BradS' intention. I'm sorry.

But, after all, petition is just a list of names. Consider it as a list of devoted Supra Endura users. Even if it was completely futile, so what? It takes only a few seconds to sign, and a few minutes to send. I think we all understand that in addition to petition, we also have to show our engagement in this product by buying it as long as it is available; and, of course, also start finding alternative products. But the petition will still give some numbers to KODAK about devoted Supra Endura users. Let's give KODAK a chance to decide what to do with this petition -- because, as said before, no one of us have worked for that kind of company.
 

Michael Kadillak

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As long as this remains a free country by all means you have a right to expend your time in whatever manner you chose. If promoting a petition such as the one promoted in this post is of interest of anyone then by all means go for it.

I will choose to draw upon my experience in dealing with Kodak at the executive level on issues identical to this one. If you want to solve this problem expend your energy aggregating hard orders from interested consumers and then present Kodak with an order for this product for $50,000 to $100,000. That is the only thing that will get this process moving. And the clock for this option is ticking rather quickly.

Over the years if there is one thing I have learned particularly when it relates to silver photographic products it is simply this:

Money talks and bullshit walks......
 

Ken Nadvornick

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Michael Kadillak said:
Money talks and bullshit walks......
Click to expand...

No doubt true, and no argument from this quarter on the merit of that assertion.

But given that, I think the more fundamental issue of defining which is which is an exercise best left to each individual involved. As the man said, I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

Or petition for it.

Ken

P.S. I don't print RA so I have no dog in this fight, beyond that little mutt that keeps getting kicked around whenever others are being told what they should or should not be thinking or doing.
 
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