Perma Wash + Selenium Toner for Film

Based on something I read long ago, I have been using a small amount (1/2 oz. per liter) of selenium toner in my Perma Wash step. This caused no problem in South Florida and the solution remained clear. I occasionally had to clean out the container where I stored my mix. It was good for about 20-25 rolls.

Since moving to north Florida and cooler winters, I have noticed that the solution would begin to get cloudy after even a single roll. The precipitate (probably silver since so little selenium is involved) is too fine to remove with a coffee filter. I switched to a glass container so I would see how bad it is getting. I also cut down on the toner to 1/4 ounce per liter with little improvement.

Besides a lower ambient temperature here, we are now using a water softener (sodium chloride) whereas in Miami we did not use one in the beginning and eventually started using one with potassium chloride. Neither way was there a problem.

Has anyone else had this happen?

Use distilled water.
I wash my film in tap water then a final rinse in distilled water, never used perma wash and haven't heard of using toner in a wash. I think most folks only use selenium on negs (at much higher concentrations) when they need added highlight density.

wildbill said:

... never used perma wash and haven't heard of using toner in a wash. I think most folks only use selenium on negs (at much higher concentrations) when they need added highlight density.

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Perma Wash or equivalent is pretty standard procedure after fixing film to reduce the time needed for washing film. As with paper, you probably could not (and should not) remove 100% of the fixer.

The idea of adding a very dilute amount of selenium toner to the wash came from either Ansel Adams, John Sexton, Fred Picker or some other reputable source. The point is not to alter the intensity of the silver, only to provide a slight amount of selenium to it help stabilize and preserve it.

PS: Kodak recommends Rapid Selenium 1+29 as a preservative for negatives with a minimal contrast increase. I figured 1+59 was more conservative but maybe not as effective.

selmslie said:

The idea of adding a very dilute amount of selenium toner to the wash came from either Ansel Adams, John Sexton, Fred Picker or some other reputable source. The point is not to alter the intensity of the silver, only to provide a slight amount of selenium to it help stabilize and preserve it.

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I believe that more recent research conducted for micro film has shown that there must be a profound change in color (all of the silver grains covered with either selenium, gold, or sulfur) for true archival permanence. So using selenium toner 1+29 really isn't going to help very much.

Gerald C Koch said:

I believe that more recent research conducted for micro film has shown that there must be a profound change in color (all of the silver grains covered with either selenium, gold, or sulfur) for true archival permanence. So using selenium toner 1+29 really isn't going to help very much.

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Gerald is 100% correct. You are just wasting your time and money trying to "preserve" you negatives with selenium toning. Plus, if you are discarding your PermaWash when it reaches capacity, you are likely tossing an amount of still-active selenium toner with it; not the best practice. Kodak's research has been superseded.

Use distilled water, forget the selenium toner for film unless you are trying to intensify a negative and don't mix the wash aid and the toner together in any case. They should be separate steps.

There are also some who question the efficacy of PermaWash... I prefer the Kodak or Ilford product or mix my own wash aid.

Best,

Doremus

Thanks for all of your feedback. It appears that my use of selenium for film preservation was based on old information. However, reducing the level did not make any difference so I will try the wash aid without any selenium. I suspect that something else is going on. I have also been trying out a couple of different films and what I am seeing may actually be silver particles that don't show up in the fixer but become evident in the wash aid solution. The final wash seems to remove virtually all of the particles. I will keep experimenting.

selmslie said:

Thanks for all of your feedback. It appears that my use of selenium for film preservation was based on old information. However, reducing the level did not make any difference so I will try the wash aid without any selenium. I suspect that something else is going on. I have also been trying out a couple of different films and what I am seeing may actually be silver particles that don't show up in the fixer but become evident in the wash aid solution. The final wash seems to remove virtually all of the particles. I will keep experimenting.

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Forgot to mention... The precipitate you are getting is likely silver selenide or silver selenium sulfate from dissolved silver compounds in the wash aid reacting with the selenium toner. I replenish selenium toner and never discard it. I have to filter out the precipitate from time to time. If there's no selenium toner in your wash aid, you won't get this.

Best,

Doremus