Perfection or Personality

Thomas Satalino · Nov 9, 2017

Now I know I’ve only been doing this for a week or so, and I know that most of you reading this are far more experienced, however, in my brief time exploring this forum and participating in discussions, I’ve noticed a trend. It seems that there is a heavy wight towards perfectionism and exactness in this community. I can most definitely appreciate that, however, I find that I’ve had the most fun going in to the darkroom, and not having any idea What I’m planning on doing, and just letting the process play out as it would like to. I.E. completely winging processing times. The other thing I’ve noticed is that A LOT of the prints I’ve done this way have actually turned out.... really great! I’m not trying to pointy fingers or accuse anyone of anything, I’m simply asking.... why all the perfection, when guessing gives... just as good results?

Bob Carnie · Nov 9, 2017

Just as good results, and predicable just as good results are two different things.... Also with some of the processes we use there are archival Known methods that many of us follow.

I am the first one to say there is no such thing as the perfect print, and in my past rants on this site over 13 years I still believe this and am really open to happy accidents or bold steps to do something different.

jim10219 · Nov 9, 2017

Photography lies at the intersection of science and art. There are many professional photographers who make their living, not by creating beautiful accidents, but by meeting the clients expectations time and again. So with that in mind, many professional photographers need a systematic process to ensure there are no surprises.

There are some photographers who appreciate the more artistic side of it all. They can afford to fail, and as such, enjoy taking risks and looking for the beautiful accidents. These people are usually hobbyists due to the fact that it's incredibly hard to make a living as a fine artist, especially one with a unique style.

Then there at photographers who span the gap between the two. Some rely on a rigid system for some things, and aren't afraid to venture off the beaten path for others. They may take a commission for a family photo one day, and sell some landscape prints the next.

In the end, you have to do you. If you want repeatable results, then a system is the best approach. If you want to explore new ways of doing things, then don't follow the system. The important thing is to understand who you are and what you're trying to accomplish, and don't project those ideals onto others.

dasBlute · Nov 9, 2017

someday, you may want to recreate the look of one of those "happy accidents",
and you're going to want some precision in your process... there is no shame
in having mastery over your tools... then you can have happy prints on purpose as well

Thomas Satalino · Nov 9, 2017

Great responses. I agree that there is a place for knowing exactly how your print will turn out, but it seems to me that the prints I’ve done where I’ve not really had any specific regimen, and the prints I’ve done where I followed times and measurements and formulas precisely both turned out to be quite the same.... I guess it just bothers me also a bit that there are so many conflicting “right” ways to do things. It seems like the “right” way for *me* to do things is to just go with my gut and hope it works! Haha I’m not at all saying that it isn’t admirable to pursue the perfect system, but... it feels like Bach trying to play jazz..... it’s the feel of it, the personality, the unpredictability of it all that fuels my passion for it. The not knowing how the picture will turn out EVEN IF you think your exposure was perfect. The random strangers you meet in the street while taking portraits, and the different moods that come through the paper when you over or under develope/expose during printing... all of that gives the final product a distinct, and perfect (to me) look and mood.....

Thomas Satalino · Nov 9, 2017

Thomas Satalino said:
Great responses. I agree that there is a place for knowing exactly how your print will turn out, but it seems to me that the prints I’ve done where I’ve not really had any specific regimen, and the prints I’ve done where I followed times and measurements and formulas precisely both turned out to be quite the same.... I guess it just bothers me also a bit that there are so many conflicting “right” ways to do things. It seems like the “right” way for *me* to do things is to just go with my gut and hope it works! Haha I’m not at all saying that it isn’t admirable to pursue the perfect system, but... it feels like Bach trying to play jazz..... it’s the feel of it, the personality, the unpredictability of it all that fuels my passion for it. The not knowing how the picture will turn out EVEN IF you think your exposure was perfect. The random strangers you meet in the street while taking portraits, and the different moods that come through the paper when you over or under develope/expose during printing... all of that gives the final product a distinct, and perfect (to me) look and mood.....

HOWEVER!!! I still really would love to find a repeatable printing process for my darkroom.. everyone is conflicted about my setup, but I’m determined to make it work!

rrusso · Nov 9, 2017

Just keep enjoying yourself, but do take notes so you can repeat the stuff you really like.

Thomas Satalino · Nov 9, 2017

rrusso said:
Just keep enjoying yourself, but do take notes so you can repeat the stuff you really like.

note taking is the BEST PART! It’s like writing a little journey for each exposures life cycle!

rpavich · Nov 9, 2017

Everyone's personality is different. I know that in the beginning, I was just happy to have a print come out, but after having made quite a few prints, I'm more interested in doing something on purpose rather than by chance.

Paper costs money, chems cost money, time is money, after a while you might not want to spend time, effort, and cash on things that don't turn out right.

In the mean time...have fun!

Mainecoonmaniac · Nov 9, 2017

Don't be afraid of the perfect flaw. Try not to be a slave to technique. But master your tools first.

faberryman · Nov 9, 2017

I am all for creativity, but not for being haphazard and calling it creativity. After all, unless everything is to be a one-off, you will want to be able to repeat that creativity. There is an old saying about knowing the rules before you start breaking them.

faberryman · Nov 9, 2017

Thomas Satalino said:
HOWEVER!!! I still really would love to find a repeatable printing process for my darkroom.. everyone is conflicted about my setup, but I’m determined to make it work!

To find a repeatable printing process, do a repeatable printing process. I doubt everyone is conflicted about your setup. The standards are pretty well established. There are variations, but those variations are variations on a standard.

Thomas Satalino · Nov 9, 2017

faberryman said:
To find a repeatable printing process, do a repeatable printing process. I doubt everyone is conflicted about your setup. The standards are pretty well established. There are variations, but those variations are variations on a standard.

It seems as though there is some conflict about my process. My process is using dektol and tf-4 for film, and Liquidol and tf-4 for printing. No stop for either, just water and those chemicals. The no stop thing seems to be where the controversy lies. Some people say I’m a moron, some people say I’m fine!

pentaxuser · Nov 9, 2017

Thomas Satalino said:
Some people say I’m a moron, some people say I’m fine!

I can't say I had noticed any people say you are a moron

pentaxuser

Thomas Satalino · Nov 9, 2017

pentaxuser said:
I can't say I had noticed any people say you are a moron

pentaxuser

Not in this forum, which is why I’m still here <3 you all have been great!

rpavich · Nov 9, 2017

Thomas Satalino said:
Not in this forum, which is why I’m still here <3 you all have been great!

Hahaha...just give us time.

Thomas Satalino · Nov 9, 2017

rpavich said:
Hahaha...just give us time.

Oh... okay now I’m scared.

rpavich · Nov 9, 2017

Thomas Satalino said:
Oh... okay now I’m scared.

Seriously, I'm a member of several photo forums and I can say without reservation that the APUG/Photorio has the most knowledgeable, personable, helpful folks I've found. (On the analogue side, I don't know what goes on on the other side, it could be anarchy!)

tedr1 · Nov 9, 2017

It's your darkroom, have fun

Stop prevents degradation of the fixer by the developer on the paper. If that doesn't matter to you then don't use it. A print processed in exhausted fixer appears normal at first but gradually darkens when exposed to light.

One of the reasons for what you are calling perfection is that the chemistry and papers have been made with care and behave in predictable ways when exposed and processed by the book. This allows the choice of "normal processing" (which is what you may be thinking is obsessive) or unconventional processing for creative purposes. Both choices are valid.

Another reason for attention to detail in processing described in posts here is that some folks are experimenting with unconventional processing and then comparing results. This process requires detailed notes of the chemistry and processing conditions to be included in a post for comparison with the choices of others.

winger · Nov 9, 2017

If you use your fixer as one-shot and don't do very many prints per session, then stop bath isn't as important. What it does is stop the development more sharply (which helps with keeping the time consistent) and keeps developer from going into your fixer and making it go bad faster. So, while you can get away with not using stop in some cases, it will help you in the long run to use it.
Being haphazard in measuring can lead to uneven development. If you do that on a print, it's not a huge deal 'cause all you wasted is a sheet or few of paper. If the development is uneven on film, then you've wasted your time in shooting and however many frames you developed badly. You also may be wasting more money if you regularly make it stronger than it needs to be. Chemists put a decent amount of time in to figure out the optimal ratios, temperatures, and times. Use their knowledge.
Developers intended for film were made for that purpose. Ditto for paper. You really gain nothing by mixing them around. While you may like the results you've gotten, have you tried them the right way? How do you know those aren't better? I've seen some images on deviantart that the makers were very proud of, but that just looked awful from a classic photography standpoint. Some of that is just taste, but there's a difference between doing something poorly by accident and thinking it's artistic and doing it with the intent of it looking strange (and being able to recreate the same look later).

M Carter · Nov 9, 2017

Most of my prints, I want a strange character - I want to transform the image into something that speaks to why it stopped me in my tracks and caused me to shoot it.

On the other hand, I want as perfect negs as possible - I want to control how far I push things around and what I do - I want every possible bit of scene info that I might need to work with in printing. And on the other-other hand, I've found pinhole cameras to really bring something to my shots. I can't get a wide enough lens for my RB to replicate just the drama of a 40mm-equivalent pinhole that has no distortion. So when I built my pinhole, I took great pains to get the hole and size and distance right, and I get very detailed negs, from a camera with a shutter and cable release and film advance. I shoot mostly RB and pinhole nowadays.

So for me, the neg is a good expression of the scene as-is - as good as I can make it. Then I go to lith printing, masking, spot diffusion, even bromoil printing to push the neg into new territories. Many times, my first shot at a lith print is a 'happy accident" - lith does its own thing, and then you can decide how much to hang onto and how much to change.

I've shot too many negs where I thought I'd try something wild, but didn't end up with usable tonality or focus. Though sometimes I bring along a flipped-lens hawkeye, but I use that for an alternate take on the scene.

So, just one philosophical approach among many.

RauschenOderKorn · Nov 9, 2017

Why not have both, perfection and personality?

I don´t see a contradiction between the two. The photographers I know or I have read about knew their process very well, and they knew every little tweak by heart. That is how they became great photographers in the first place.

But that does not mean that you have to do everything the way it is written in the textbook or what people might tell you on this forum. Please do experiment and discover your own ways. That is part of the art, and everybody is looking forward to see something fresh and to hear about new ideas.

The only unsolicited advice for your journey: keep lots of notes how you made things. Because in a year or in ten years, you will not remember how you achieved a certain look or tone, or how you exposed, dodged and burned a certain print. Good notes are really valuable for that.

And about precision: precision is required for reproducibility and transferability. That is why quite a few people are precise in this forum.

Bob Carnie · Nov 9, 2017

I use acid stop for all my printing... its imperative for lith prints to stop development at the correct snatch point, as well solarizations I pull the print when I think it is perfect at the acid stop is critical for me at least.

Sirius Glass · Nov 9, 2017

One can strive for good enough or for perfection. Their photographs, their choices, their happiness. I work at photography to please me, not others.

Gerald C Koch · Nov 9, 2017

Perfection cannot be approached except asymptotically. In other words you can get as close as you wish but never achieve complete perfection.

As far as doing a sloppy job and wishing for an interesting accident they do happen but not as often as one would hope. What really annoys me are those that try to to turn aside criticism of sloppy work with the excuse that they were 'experimenting.'

Perfection or Personality

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