Perceptol with Adox CMS 20 anyone?

I would like to test Perceptol with Adox CMS 20 and noticed there are no infos for this combo. Any idea?

As for dilution, should i go 1:1 full throttle for this combo? Thanks. Any advice is highly appreciated.

You should take a look on Flickr. Search using perceptol and Adox CMS 20 as your keyword. You will find someone who has used Perceptol at 1+10 dilution (successfully in my opinion). I have tried it with only 1 roll so I cannot really comment on my birthday experience. I found the emulsion more susceptible to damage than what I’m used to (eg Acros 100).

https://www.digitaltruth.com/devchart.php?Film=Adox+CMS&mdc=Search

Regards,
Frank

CMS 20 in Ilford Perceptol is a fine and cheap combination.
But notice the special characteristics of CMS 20. ADOTECH SPECIAL DEVELOPER is designed to give ultra resolution with this film.
Up to 800lines - just theoreticaly.
1) you will need a good tripod
2) you will need the best lens you can buy
3) you should shot with 5,6/8 with your best less
4) you have to develope the film most precisely
5) you will need to have "clean air souroundings" while shooting.
(NO fog/smog) because this definitifly can reduce resolution.

with regards

PS : Perceptol is a nice method to come first into workflow with this film.

Interesting: Fotoimpex claims you can develop 10 rolls with the stock solution but Ilford speaks of 4 rolls max. Thats a huge difference. How many have you developed with one stock solution?

I find it hard to believe a lot of those combinations listed on massivedev chart will actually work.

I wouldnt be using stock perceptol either. As howard said 1+10 is a far more sensible starting point from my experience

Odot said:

I would like to test Perceptol with Adox CMS 20 and noticed there are no infos for this combo. Any idea?

As for dilution, should i go 1:1 full throttle for this combo? Thanks. Any advice is highly appreciated.

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Perceptol is designed to reduce the grain of medium and fast films. It just isn't needed for slow films. So there is a lack of development data for slow films. A better combination wold be using an acutance developer.

Craig75 said:

I wouldnt be using stock perceptol either. As howard said 1+10 is a far more sensible starting point from my experience

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Craig, have you got any neg/print scans we can see from a 1+10 Perceptol combination with CMS 20 or if you used 1+10 on other films then I'd be interested in those as well. I must admit to never having seen anything more than 1+3 for Perceptol but 1+10 certainly makes it a much more economical developer.

I suppose my other question and it may be on the lips of others here as well is: How do the likes of Perceptol or any other developers fare with this Adox CMS 20 film compared to Adox own developer. Certainly Adox suggest that if you want get the best out of CMS 20 you should use its own custom-made developer but of course it would say that wouldn't it?

Thanks

pentaxuser

Odot said:

Interesting: Fotoimpex claims you can develop 10 rolls with the stock solution but Ilford speaks of 4 rolls max. Thats a huge difference. How many have you developed with one stock solution?

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The Iford PDF datasheet for Perceptol says it has a capacity of 4 films / litre. I lately used an older box and insde it was mentioned a capacity of 5 films. So I mailed Ilford (UK) and they said it was 4 films actually. The advise was also to get the data from the PDF and not from the box, because that is the most recent data.

I also saw the numbers from fotoimpex (10 films/liter) and it is not correct.

So, the person mentioned by howardpan (post #2) who did a 1+10 dilution had no idea what he was doing because you need at least 1000/4=250 ml stock / film, resulting in a volume of 11x250=2750 ml to develop one film.

pentaxuser said:

Craig, have you got any neg/print scans we can see from a 1+10 Perceptol combination with CMS 20 or if you used 1+10 on other films then I'd be interested in those as well. I must admit to never having seen anything more than 1+3 for Perceptol but 1+10 certainly makes it a much more economical developer.

I suppose my other question and it may be on the lips of others here as well is: How do the likes of Perceptol or any other developers fare with this Adox CMS 20 film compared to Adox own developer. Certainly Adox suggest that if you want get the best out of CMS 20 you should use its own custom-made developer but of course it would say that wouldn't it?

Thanks

pentaxuser

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I used it in 16mm (as agfa copex if interent is right) and would take same shot on way from work (as it had some deep shadows and highlights in it if sun was out), develop, adjust time or dilution then try again. I think i tried it with rodinal, caffenol, and perceptol but I havent written time developer and dilution on back of print so it must be on other pc which is still in storage after moving house.

the closest I got was this very uninspired attempt attached which ironically needs more development time as contrast on enlarger was maxed out. I dont know why its so soft tho - print isnt as muddy and soft as scan but its not far off!

I think I either got bored or autumn came and light was just too crappy to shoot it handheld in 16mm and gave up and never got a definitive time / dilution.

In 16mm i can see the point as you can buy 100ft rolls really cheap and if you can make it work then you have good summer shooter and can make grain free 8x10s from 16mm. in 35mm i just cant see the point tho - Pan F is just as good for that style of shooting and a lot easier to use.

def dont use perceptol 1:10 with a normal film tho!

Craig, I was still not sure of exactly what you said in your reply but maybe I can try and summarise what I think you said.
1. You used Perceptol at 1+10 with Agfa Copex 16mm film and the result is what you have shown us in the picture of trees and water or are you saying that you are unsure if it was Perceptol at 1+10 and it might have been one of the other developers you mention?
2. You haven't used Perceptol with any other normal film and that includes CMS20?It might help if you define "normal" for me in my "normal" isn't your "normal"

It may just have been me and how I read your post but I got the impression that you had used Perceptol at 1+10 with CMS20

Just as a matter of interest what was the camera that took 16mm film? Thanks

To help me out then, is there anyone on this thread who has used Perceptol 1+10 with any "normal 35mm film and/or CMS20? I feel this is an important point as I, like Billy Axeman, have worries about this dilution as in the usual 35mm tank of between 250-300mls this is only about 23-27ml of Perceptol stock.

I admit I have become thoroughly confused on this thread.

pentaxuser

pentaxuser said:

....
To help me out then, is there anyone on this thread who has used Perceptol 1+10 with any "normal 35mm film and/or CMS20? I feel this is an important point as I, like Billy Axeman, have worries about this dilution as in the usual 35mm tank of between 250-300mls this is only about 23-27ml of Perceptol stock.
I admit I have become thoroughly confused on this thread.
pentaxuser

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It is a common misunderstanding that, for example, a 1+10 dilution is more economical than a 1+3 dilution, because the determining factor is the capacity - the total number of films you can develop from one liter of stock. Capacity is capacity, you can't change that with dilution.

Usually people who say that a high dilution is economical are making the mistake that they are using not enough developer from stock, for example 1+10 Perceptol in a 250 ml tank (22 ml stock is far too little).

There can be reasons to use a higher dilution, to change the appearance of the result, but with a given capacity you know the minimum amount of stock you need for one film, which is then diluted. The result is simply a larger volume of working developer for higher dilutions, which means a bigger tank, nothing else.

Billy, my understanding is that there is a range of stock Perceptol quantity that is acceptable for developing so that if we use 250ml as the capacity of a tank for 35mm, for example, then at stock you use 250ml and get 4 films per litre. However you can use it at 1+3 in the same 250ml tank when you would use 60ml stock and 180ml water. If you chose to do all your films at 1+3 such as you can with HP5+( gaining speed but at the expense of some additional graininess) then you would get 16 films out of the 1L of stock.

I certainly have used 60ml of stock with HP5+ in a 250ml tank and got very good results but I agree that there has to be an irreducible minimum to be used and if this was as low 22ml as in a 1+10 then I'd have expected Ilford to at least make mention of this as a possibility. and it hasn't in any of the literature I have seen

So yes, I have grave doubts about 1+10 but the way the thread was going it seemed that this had been done successfully and I was asking for examples. However as I said I may have completely misread what was said in the posts and in fact no-one has used Perceptol at 1+10

pentaxuser

michael_r said:

Perceptol at any dilution will not tame the inherent contrast/short scale of CMS20. Only special purpose low contrast developers will do that.

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that's my feeling too but there are a lot of examples on internet of people being able to do things with the film that I couldnt so it's total roulette what each other person can get out of it - i've seen different people say they shoot it at 3,6,12,20 - which is a hell of a range for a film that from my experience only has 5 or 6 stops before it falls apart but some people are making it work

pentaxuser said:

Craig, I was still not sure of exactly what you said in your reply but maybe I can try and summarise what I think you said.
1. You used Perceptol at 1+10 with Agfa Copex 16mm film and the result is what you have shown us in the picture of trees and water or are you saying that you are unsure if it was Perceptol at 1+10 and it might have been one of the other developers you mention?
2. You haven't used Perceptol with any other normal film and that includes CMS20?It might help if you define "normal" for me in my "normal" isn't your "normal"

It may just have been me and how I read your post but I got the impression that you had used Perceptol at 1+10 with CMS20

Just as a matter of interest what was the camera that took 16mm film? Thanks

To help me out then, is there anyone on this thread who has used Perceptol 1+10 with any "normal 35mm film and/or CMS20? I feel this is an important point as I, like Billy Axeman, have worries about this dilution as in the usual 35mm tank of between 250-300mls this is only about 23-27ml of Perceptol stock.

I admit I have become thoroughly confused on this thread.

pentaxuser

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I used perceptol at a high dilution with this film but i dont know the dilution or whether awful effort i showed was with perceptol. I have a feeling it might have been low contrast caffenol (ie just coffee and washing soda) as i seemed to remember getting a few images that were very soft and wooly with that developer - I think i could use it to get contrast under control but images all suffered in same way you can see in one i showed so I gave up with that developer. I think most of my efforts with rodinal perceptol and caffenol were unmitigated failures - either too high contrast, speed too slow, unable to tame more than 3 or 4 stops, or just not sharp.

From my experience I certainly wouldnt be trying to use perceptol at stock, 1:1 or 1:3 with this film - if OP wants to try using perceptol with this film then I'd start at higher dilution and I'd be very sceptical of info on massive dev chart for perceptol and this film.

I havent used perceptol at a high dilution with a normal film

normal = film designed for pictorial contrast - eg hp5, fp4, tri-x etc etc.
CMS20 isnt designed for pictorial contrast so you have to force it to behave in ways it wasnt designed to if you want to use it for pictorial contrast.

Camera was probably a minolta 16ii - it can take way sharper pictures than that if you load it with kodak double x and develop it in perceptol

michael_r said:

Well, for what it's worth, here's a characteristic curve for CMS20 developed in Adotech (which is a fairly extreme developer). It renders this particular film barely usable under normal contrast conditions. If I remember correctly EI would have been approximately 12 although this depends on the criteria. Regardless of EI, Perceptol at any dilution will not get you anywhere near this exposure range. Perceptol is not a low contrast developer, regardless of how much you dilute it.

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/adox-cms-20-ii-adotech-ii-some-experimental-results.120993/

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that looks fine for use on regular day in UK - probably even giving you a bit of headroom to be a stop out too! I think the 3rd version of the developer is supposed to a step up from 2nd version but the whole thing looks an expensive time and money pit to me in 35mm. You either burn through a load of rolls trying to make other developers, or home brew concoctions work or spend £2 a roll using adox's developer

In 16mm it hardly matters as you used to be able to get 100ft for just a few pounds so you can mess around with it but I think Kodak highspeed microfilm looks an easier option.

There used to be a long essay up net from Hubert Schwain (spelling?) - I think he designed adox's developer - about the film that was a very good read but I've lost the link - it's only on waybackmachine from memeory

Hi Billy,

I also read the Ilford data sheet prior to using Perceptol.

I developed my 1 roll of Adox CMS II (120 format) in 2.5 L of developer diluted 1+10. This way the total amount of stock developer in the solution would be equal to what Ilford recommended at a 1+1 dilution. I also developed it in a semi-stand manner for 60 minutes.

I didn’t make any prints from that roll since the emulsion was damaged perhaps due to poor handling.

However, I did find the three images on Flickr that I studied before developing my roll. Here they are:

https://flic.kr/p/pWFPAr

https://flic.kr/p/pXpWjN

https://flic.kr/p/qM1Evg

The OP asked about prior knowledge/prior practice with regard to the use of Perceptol with Adox CMS. He didn’t ask what is the most optimal developer or most economical or sharpest or highest resolution developer for use with this film.

Like I said, I haven’t shot and developed more than one roll of this film. I wouldn’t draw any conclusions from my one data point. I was only sharing the results I found online when I researched how to develop this film and specifically the results pertaining to the use of Perceptol.

I would welcome and perhaps even encourage the OP to share his results with Perceptol because I am interested to shoot and develop with this film/developer combination in the future.

Billy Axeman said:

The Iford PDF datasheet for Perceptol says it has a capacity of 4 films / litre. I lately used an older box and insde it was mentioned a capacity of 5 films. So I mailed Ilford (UK) and they said it was 4 films actually. The advise was also to get the data from the PDF and not from the box, because that is the most recent data.

I also saw the numbers from fotoimpex (10 films/liter) and it is not correct.

So, the person mentioned by howardpan (post #2) who did a 1+10 dilution had no idea what he was doing because you need at least 1000/4=250 ml stock / film, resulting in a volume of 11x250=2750 ml to develop one film.

Click to expand...

Bill

To help me out then, is there anyone on this thread who has used Perceptol 1+10 with any "normal 35mm film and/or CMS20? OTE]

......yep I did it in higher delutions.
But I can't remember 1/10.
I remember the comparison with simple D76 to find out if it would work as a low contrast developer. The higher delution I remember with D76 around 1+ 7 may be it was 1 + 8. With Perceptol - it was just
1 + 5 may be max. 1 + 6....
But it is no economical way with Perceptol it is just a way to get "lousy contrast" caused from the need with
higest contrast films.
It was a result rated as 4+...........
But I could imagine someone find 1+9
And in comparison of High priced special developers it is indeed very cheap.
But it is not the right way with normal films 1 + 3 / 1 + 4 is the max I prefer as highest delution of Perceptol but stock is often better.

with regards

PS : Better recipes came from the 40th/50th but I have it not in mind.
I would need my notes. More then 5 - 6
different alternate developers may handle this task with Agfa Copex like films.

Billy Axeman said:

It is a common misunderstanding that, for example, a 1+10 dilution is more economical than a 1+3 dilution, because the determining factor is the capacity - the total number of films you can develop from one liter of stock. Capacity is capacity, you can't change that with dilution.

Usually people who say that a high dilution is economical are making the mistake that they are using not enough developer from stock, for example 1+10 Perceptol in a 250 ml tank (22 ml stock is far too little).

There can be reasons to use a higher dilution, to change the appearance of the result, but with a given capacity you know the minimum amount of stock you need for one film, which is then diluted. The result is simply a larger volume of working developer for higher dilutions, which means a bigger tank, nothing else.

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Billy to clear the missunderstanding of some of you here : The issue of Perceptol as "cheaper" developer has noting to do with the total capacity or min. amound of stock ml./per film.
The issue with higher delution is not in concern of economical worflow (more films with less developer). Therefore the data sheeds of Ilford can't be helpfull.
It is first in concern of developer improvement via experimental use in higher delutions for develop document films.
And second "cheap" is in concern of highest priced special developers like these of "spur" type.

with regards

Odot said:

I would like to test Perceptol with Adox CMS 20 and noticed there are no infos for this combo. Any idea?

As for dilution, should i go 1:1 full throttle for this combo? Thanks. Any advice is highly appreciated.

Click to expand...

So - here we are Odot.
As you ask for dilution you may try it and you might find out correct times with
Perceptol 1 + 1 - I supose your contrasts could be very high then.
But it is on you. Perhaps Perceptol stock will also give some results with your film - I can't say. But I would expect it is no good combination. (Perceptol as stock dilution with ADOX CMS 20.)

As I mentioned D76 in higher dilution I have to add - it was just experimental - if
I remember correct I stopped it at 1 + 8.
So the results, rated as 4+ ,.....I mentioned yesterday, - were obviously only in concern of diluted D76. (.....it was just an experiment because I wanted to know...
) behaps it will give somewhere some results in higher delution D76 but that I wanted not to know(It cost me 4 films with D76 - then the stopp buzzer)

But I have found some of my notes and
the regarding time tables :

Perceptol 1 + 6, 24degree C, Agitation first 30sek. then in 10min. Intervall. with
Agfa Copex Rapid 35mm :

F/5.6 1/8 sec. ISO 12/12 Perceptol 1+ 6 32min.
F/5.6 1/8sec. ISO 6/9 (1+6 32min)

F/5.6 1/8 sec. ISO 3/6 (1+6 32min.)

Notice : The different ISO's are different
E.I. (noting to do with developement - same film)

Bon chance

PS : Better than 3+ ..I would say ...

PPS : Adox special developer is a real
" low contrast developer " but there are
always more streets to rome..

michael_r said:

Only special purpose low contrast developers will do that.

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Like D-23? I really want to try CMS 20 but i'd like to find a easy alternative to the film dedicated developer.

Pat Erson said:

Like D-23? I really want to try CMS 20 but i'd like to find a easy alternative to the film dedicated developer.

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D-23 is indeed very simple. I would also had a try with D-23 but I had some Ilford Perceptol and some D76.
But notice : Document films and docuent films are not allways the same.
There is no real need to this films since decades (with very special exeptions).
To use this films for photphotographical purpose is no real new issue.
(I remember neofin doku from the 70th and wonder about bad negatives after developement Fp4 in 1977)........because I did not know. ...
What is new today? Some real experts in germany (there might be other countries with experts) - designed comercial developers for document/microfilms not to use for general purpose photography !
You should have in mind - there are other films with very fine characteristics in bw
and they are much cheaper.
Companies like "Spur" made research with special document films to push such films in combination with developers via
"contrast defraction" to the physicaly limit in resolution.
So we might state it is possible then to reach the characteristics of the higher format. You are able to reach the quality
of 120films with 35mm and 4x5 with 120films. If there might be some formats again in 4x5 or 5x7 (I just remember Rollei ATO 2.0 in higher sheed formats - discontinued) you might be able to reach 8x10 characteristics with cheaper and not so heavy wheight cameras.
That's the real point. But this you DEFINITIFLY will only get with special designed developers. Therefore the higher price of this developers.
Therefore you have time tables with improved developers standard (it is also not so easy then... )
The other way (like I did ) cost you some films just to come in the near of an alternate method.
But D-23 is a Microdol-x/Perceptol like developer (much in the near) - indeed!

with regards

PS : I have no Leica/Zeiss lenses of modern $ 4895,- type in 35mm to come
(just theoreticaly) in the near of 800lines/mm at 5,6/8........

As requested, heres my first results with Perceptol. I really love them btw. Lots of great detail and nice sharpness.

The film used was a Trix 400. Results with Perceptol and Adox CMS 20 coming sometime this week

https://imgur.com/a/OZVzi

As requested, heres my first results with Perceptol. I really love them btw. Lots of great detail and nice sharpness.

The film used was a Trix 400. Results with Perceptol and Adox CMS 20 coming sometime this week

https://imgur.com/a/OZVzi

those have come out a treat.

yes, please show your perceptol findings with adox cms20. I'd be very interested to see what you can get with it