Perceptol lives! [And more news from Ilford representative!]

photomc · Nov 15, 2005

Thanks Simon, this is what was thought at first, but then re-read...anyway glad to hear that the LF sizes will stay as they are.

Seems like I read somewhere that Ilford is considering some new toners...any truth to this, any chance of a nice Sepia type toner like Kodak Brown Toner or Agfa's Varidon?

Thanks again for keeping us updated.

Simon R Galley said:
Dear All,

I was talking about all the ULF sizes to make in a limited range : All the current sheet films we make, and you buy ( thank you ) are absolutely safe:

Next week I will publish a list of sizes that we will propose to management to manufacture, if this is approved remember it goes to feasability only, so far it seems the sheet film product of choice is FP4+ and HP5+.

An interesting note : Feint numbers on 120 film : yes they are, and they have to be like that or you can get something called wrapper offset, where the numbers can be seen on the film when processed ( not a good thing ) especially on red window cameras, this is incredibly rare, but as always history evolves the reasons for some of the things that may cause you irratation.

Kind Regards

Simon.

mikeg · Nov 15, 2005

photomc said:
Seems like I read somewhere that Ilford is considering some new toners...any truth to this, any chance of a nice Sepia type toner like Kodak Brown Toner or Agfa's Varidon?

I think Simon mentioned this in one of his earlier messages way back on page 8. They're looking at producing a brown toner.

Mike

Ole · Nov 15, 2005

Even nicer than a replacement for Viradon would be a replacement for "old" Viradon - the sulfide/selenium toner. Especially since my last bottle will be empty sometime next year.

Rob Skeoch · Nov 15, 2005

Would be happy with hp5+ in ULF or Delta 400.
-Rob Skeoch

Nick Zentena · Nov 15, 2005

Simon R Galley said:
An interesting note : Feint numbers on 120 film : yes they are, and they have to be like that or you can get something called wrapper offset, where the numbers can be seen on the film when processed ( not a good thing ) especially on red window cameras, this is incredibly rare, but as always history evolves the reasons for some of the things that may cause you irratation.

The numbers matter for more then just older cameras. The new rollfilm backs from China all seem to use red windows. You need to be able to see those numbers-) Plus they tend to be 6x12 or even 6x17 so they use a fair bit of film.

Aggie · Nov 15, 2005

Simon if you want postcards, I have a few spares I can send you. Just PM me the address and I will send just a few. (quiet all of you who have gotten bundles in the past)

Phong · Nov 15, 2005

Simon R Galley said:
I have a question....I have been looking at LF and ULF and got some market information, to cover 80% of the sizes requested we would need 10 sizes, this means if I am to progress this to a product range, realistically I can only request one film speed, the question is simple which product...DELTA 100 asa, DELTA 400 asa, FP4 + or HP5+ What do you think ? ....
Simon.

I agree with those who vote for 400 film. I'd go with HP5 now but Delta 400 is great too. It would be fantastic if Ilford can commit to "one film in all sizes, one size in all films". Anything else is extra and duly appreciated.

- Phong

Donald Qualls · Nov 15, 2005

Simon R Galley said:
An interesting note : Feint numbers on 120 film : yes they are, and they have to be like that or you can get something called wrapper offset, where the numbers can be seen on the film when processed ( not a good thing ) especially on red window cameras, this is incredibly rare, but as always history evolves the reasons for some of the things that may cause you irratation.

I've seen a very few examples of "wrapper offset", which (because the numbers aren't the same as that of the affected frame) I've taken to be a chemical effect of the ink reacting with the halide while the film is on the roll. I've heard of it with gas-hypered Tech Pan (no longer with us), and with Efke films on several occasions, but never with (unmodified) Kodak, Ilford, Fuji, or Agfa. I've personally used 50 rolls or more of Kodak 120 over the last couple years, and never seen it, but I can always read the frame numbers. I can read frame numbers on Agfa, Fuji, and even Lucky films, heck, I can read frame numbers on J&C Pro 100, the cheapest film out there. It's only Ilford where I can't read the numbers easily through the red window.

If you don't get wrapper offset with the existing ink, the same ink with more pigment shouldn't be a problem -- and that's the difference between a nice black and a translucent grey, right? For that matter, I'd expect wrapper offset to be more to do with drying time of the ink on the backing than to do with how much ink is used -- if the ink is dry, it won't be outgassing stuff that can locally fog the halide, so it won't numbers on the negatives.

Meantime, if I can't read the numbers, I'm unlikely to like the film enough better than other brands to buy a lot of it (especially given it's a bit more money than Lucky, Foma, or rebranded Forte). Overlapped or wasted frames don't improve my opinion of a film, if they're caused by the film or its packaging...

Michiel · Nov 16, 2005

Dear Mr Galley,

Having read the whole thread I have some suggestions.

1.Make a poll on your website so we can vote for a line of products. You must have some ideas by now which products to include in your line. A online-poll advertised by us darkroom-people on serious sites (photo.net/APUG, etc) would give you structures information based on real user data.

2. Why not do all-in-one packs of developer/stopbath/fixer in film and paper. Include 5 postcard per pack of paper-pack and you get people to try postcards, and you sell 3 products at once, plus the effect of paper/developer/stop/fix will give great results as your company intended. This is more for the small-scale printers among us, but I would like to buy that. Make this a liquid, make it easy to mix (same dilution say 1+9) and make the film-type versitile for as many films as possible.

3. Paper-samplers. Include 5 of each type or size of paper in a 25 pack for beginners. Once you grow up with Ilford, you will not likely switch to something else.

4. Give student discount or reward schools for buying big.

5.Be kind to large format. These guys have a lot of High-end (and price) material, which they will hold on to in many years to come. This will also give Ilford a professional feel, and if someone that professional uses Ilford, who am I (as an amateur) to say they are wrong?

6.Make film multi packs. 4 HP5+ with an-pack a roll of SFX. Or 4 rolls of Delta 100 + 1 roll Delta 400.

7. Make your line as versitile as possible. All film in one developer (as a standard) and a few others for the pro`s. Let people see that you can shoot HP5+ from ISO 200-1600. Make people aware what you can do with the current line-up. As they experiment they will be more involved, your products will be used up faster etc.

As a thought to the rest of us. Let`s not divide an already small market. Be thankfull for what is left on the market, work with what we have. I try to keep my film, paper and chemicals to one brand (Ilford) and one sort. I buy a lot from Ilford and sometimes experiment with other brands (one has to try) but I keep in the back of my mind that if everyone buys a little of everything, what we are left with is a whole lot of nothing.

mikeg · Nov 16, 2005

Michiel said:
6.Make film multi packs. 4 HP5+ with an-pack a roll of SFX. Or 4 rolls of Delta 100 + 1 roll Delta 400.

They have done things like that in the past e.g. a couple of years ago they included a roll of Delta 3200 with packs of HP5 & FP4. Some suppliers here in the UK are currently advertising a free roll of Delta 100, 400 and 3200 with packs of 100 10x8 MG IV RC paper.

Mike

Andy K · Nov 16, 2005

Has anyone mentioned it would be fantabulous to see the return of postcard paper?

Simon R Galley · Nov 16, 2005

Dear All,

A couple of notes today, first feint exposure numbers on roll film, I have today asked our QC department if they can investigate, if other manufacturers can do it, why can't we ?.

So I have asked the question and I will post a reply when they come back to me.

Thanks for all the ideas Micheil, we have done film value packs before, it is truly amazing the various combinations you can have...the trouble is, its always the wrong one, I really do not see us doing this again in all honesty.

Someone pointed out that we have promo box out at the moment, its true, we do 3 x DELTA films a 100, 400 and a 3200 Free in a box of MULTIGRADE IV 10"x8" Gloss and Pearl, also the same in 17.8cm x 24cm it shipped in September, but not to all markets, it is not possible ( legal ) to say you are giving away things free in certain markets, and we sell only through country distributors so it depends on what stock they bought and what is left on the retailers shelves, it sold very well though.

For those Postcard lovers, I am pleased to tell you that the production test has gone well, this is the first hurdle toward re-introduction, I will give more information when I have it, I also have a meeting tomorrow about ULF film.

Interesting times.

Simon.

Aggie · Nov 16, 2005

Simon when I meet you in LA in March, for all the apuggers, I will take you out to dinner. Thank you for all you are doing for us.

rexp · Nov 16, 2005

Just discovered in stock (and ordered) Perceptol from B&H (Always been happy with their service). Finally have some more of my favorite developer. Yippee! - Thanks Ilford

dalahorse · Nov 16, 2005

I saw it second!

rexp said:
Just discovered in stock (and ordered) Perceptol from B&H (Always been happy with their service). Finally have some more of my favorite developer. Yippee! - Thanks Ilford

Oh bummer! I just saw it at B&H (checking daily!) and came racing over to make the "I saw it first" post. Well, I guess this is my "I saw it second" post. 1L boxes of Perceptol are available on the B&H web site for US$5.99. Someone tell David B...

Simon R Galley · Nov 17, 2005

Update From Simon @ ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology

Dear All,

Pleased you are all now getting PERCEPTOL...I told you it had shipped:

Aggie : Thanks for the Dinner invite, but you will have to take Steven or Howard from ILFORD Photo, not me....but I will be going to TORONTO APUG next Year.

Feint Numbers on 120:

I was correct, ours are more feint to avoid ' wrapper offset' we use a different backing paper to other manufacturers, our QC and complaints department have confirmed this as the reason. We have received two complaints about this in the last 6 months, so it was below our radar
' before APUG' , so we are going to investigate if we can do a heavier
print.

Kind Regards

Simon.

Simon R Galley · Nov 17, 2005

Dear All,

Quick one re ULF formats : We would not notch ULF film, I guess this is not a problem for you ULF users ? : I also promised to let you know the sizes we are looking at
and the films : FP4+ and HP5+ Only : 25 sheet boxes only

All sizes in inches :

10 x 4 , 5 x 12 , 7 x 11 , 7 x 17 , 8 x 20 , 10 x 12 , 11 x 14 , 12 x 20 , 14 x 17 , 16 x 20 , 20 x 24

Remember we are just preparing this, it is not a product range yet....

Simon.

colrehogan · Nov 17, 2005

How would we know which side was the emulsion if there is no notch of any kind?

Rob Skeoch · Nov 17, 2005

Yea, I saw 7x17 on the list... yea....
Just so you know... since these ULF cameras are so costly.... I wouldn't be afraid to sell larger quantities of film. If I've spent $4000+ on the camera, I'm pretty sure I'll be able to handle 50 or 100 sheets of film.
Thanks for the great job.
-Rob Skeoch

smieglitz · Nov 17, 2005

Simon R Galley said:
...FP4+ and HP5+ Only : 25 sheet boxes only

All sizes in inches :

10 x 4 , 5 x 12 , 7 x 11 , 7 x 17 , 8 x 20 , 10 x 12 , 11 x 14 , 12 x 20 , 14 x 17 , 16 x 20 , 20 x 24
...

Works for me.

Joe

Ole · Nov 17, 2005

Simon R Galley said:
...
All sizes in inches :

10 x 4 , 5 x 12 , 7 x 11 , 7 x 17 , 8 x 20 , 10 x 12 , 11 x 14 , 12 x 20 , 14 x 17 , 16 x 20 , 20 x 24
...

Just thought I'd let you know there's a growing interest in ULF in metric sizes too, largely centered around the German LF forum www.grossformatfotografie.de .

Donald Qualls · Nov 17, 2005

Simon R Galley said:
I was correct, ours are more feint to avoid ' wrapper offset' we use a different backing paper to other manufacturers, our QC and complaints department have confirmed this as the reason. We have received two complaints about this in the last 6 months, so it was below our radar
' before APUG' , so we are going to investigate if we can do a heavier
print.

Thanks for checking into it -- I'll keep an ear open. Meantime, I know what to look for now, so it's really only a problem in dim light. That first roll was a dilly, though...

Donald Qualls · Nov 17, 2005

Simon R Galley said:
FP4+ and HP5+ Only : 25 sheet boxes only

Two speeds and a great range of sizes, plus your reciprocity failure is less than most other conventional grain films; this sounds excellent! Now I can build interesting pinhole cameras. Might start with a 4x10, that size film is almost affordable even on my budget...

Oren Grad · Nov 18, 2005

Simon R Galley said:
Dear All,

Quick one re ULF formats : We would not notch ULF film, I guess this is not a problem for you ULF users ? : I also promised to let you know the sizes we are looking at
and the films : FP4+ and HP5+ Only : 25 sheet boxes only

All sizes in inches :

10 x 4 , 5 x 12 , 7 x 11 , 7 x 17 , 8 x 20 , 10 x 12 , 11 x 14 , 12 x 20 , 14 x 17 , 16 x 20 , 20 x 24

Remember we are just preparing this, it is not a product range yet....

Simon.

Don't forget 6.5x8.5. I don't need you to produce it as a regular stock item, just to accept special orders for it occasionally. I'd be willing to pay in advance if that's what's needed to minimize Ilford's risk.

Mick Fagan · Nov 18, 2005

How would we know which side was the emulsion if there is no notch of any kind?
__________________
Diane

Having cut film to size for certain applications, leaving no notches, one just holds ones fingers on both sides of the top sheet for a short time.

You will find that the emulsion side becomes sticky after a short time.

Mick.

Perceptol lives! [And more news from Ilford representative!]

photomc

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Ole

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Perceptol lives! [And more news from Ilford representative!]

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