Perceptol lives! [And more news from Ilford representative!]

Ole said:

What a wonderful thread to come home to after a weekend away!

And the really good news for me - Postcards in Pearl surface, and FP4+ in 120, 4x5", 5x7", 18x24cm and 30x40cm seem to be possible again!

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Postcards! Yes please!

CAN'T WAIT

Great! postcards again and 120-25 DELTA can't wait.

JON.

Simon,

It's indeed a pleasure to hear from someone on the "inside" of Ilford.

You summed it up well when you said that everyone has their favorites (film, paper, chemistry).

For me, it comes down to something/anything being available in the sizes/formats I work in. This includes film for, but not limited to, 120, 4x5, 8x10, 10x12, 11x14, 7x17. This can be a problem for a supplier such as yourselves. You never know how much I'll buy or how often. Which leads me to a question:

What approaches is Ilford considering for sorting out product distribution and stocking items in support of us odd-ball low volume but rather vocal photographers?

In more concrete terms: If Ilford continued to make several film speeds in 120 and 4x5 formats, I could learn to live with whatever you provided. Similarly, if Ilford provided even a single film type for the ULF market (perhaps through a direct sales model so as to keep your distro stocking challenges to a minimum), I could learn to live with this too.

The only challenge I have is what happens if Kodak fails to stock Readyload materials in 4x5 B&W. I'm planning on switching to Fuji should Kodak fail to meet my needs. But if Fuji stopped making their Quickloads, I'd be out of luck. I know this would mean a new process for you guys, but... hope springs eternal.

And thank you for supplying the B&W paper market. I'm quite happy with your FB multi-grade and warm-tone papers. If something with more silver were to come along, of course I'd be happy to use it.

I'm not too picky. Just happy you guys are still around. Keep up the good work.

Another vote for postcards, I love them and have been very careful with my last two boxes. I would also love to try Delta 25 in 120. More than anything, I am so excited to hear of your commitment to black and white, it is very refreshing and will not soon be forgotten. Thanks for brightening my day considerably!

Delta 25 will be a very popular item. 120, 35mm, 4x5, 8x10, 220, etc. ... , in that order as I see.

Just a short update from a Canadian shooter about Ilford products at my local store. I went to Burlington Camera today in Burlington Ontario. They had in stock Perceptol... they said they got a case in two weeks ago but were down to the last two packs. (They also had a couple Rodinal)
They had in stock RC papers in most finishes up to 16x20 and FBWT in glossy up to 11x14. They also had stock of HP5+ in 8x10 and Delta in 4x5, plus I bought a box of HP5 in 5x7. Overall they had quite a bit of stock in the whole range of Ilford chemicals in most sizes. And lots of stock of 8x10 RC in 100 sheet boxes. Joan said things have been selling well and with the photo colleges back in swing expects stock to continue. Joan felt things were back to normal for Ilford products.
-Rob Skeoch

I bought a dozen rolls of film today. 4 x HP5, 4 x FP4, 4 x Delta100. Not a large amount I know.
What I'd like to know is this: What happened to the colour coded caps? The HP5 all have black caps (should be green), the FP4 have grey caps (should be blue) and the Delta also had grey caps which meant I had to label the caps for easy reference. Is this a temporary glitch?

Any more news on 220?Anyway it'll be back to good old HP5 for me when my APX 400 runs out...

Delta 100 in 5x7?????????

Andy K said:

What happened to the colour coded caps? The HP5 all have black caps (should be green), the FP4 have grey caps (should be blue) and the Delta also had grey caps which meant I had to label the caps for easy reference. Is this a temporary glitch?

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And heres me worrying about films future :rolleyes:

Just pack them into a shoe box Simon dont worry about the caps!!

BTW Would be very interested in the postcards and very very interested in the Delta 25.

BTW2 Simon have you ever considered square paper, lots of us print square. Maybe just one paper eg Multigrade IV FB in one square size e.g. 16x16

I do, but when I go out shooting I have at least eight rolls in a belt pouch. It is a lot easier to look in the top of the pouch and choose a film if they have the correct colour coding. If they all have the same colour caps...
I am concerned because if this is not a temporary glitch, then it is an indication of corner cutting at Ilford, and that worries me.

It's really wonderful and very refreshing to hear such good news from Ilford. Particularly with the general air of doom and gloom regarding analog product availability.

Welcome Simon, you are clearly totally committed to analog and to your customers. It's reading threads like this that remind me why I get excited by the possibilities of analog process in the first place!

For me even just the prospect of Delta 25 (in 120) is exciting. Thank you Simon for taking the time to come here and keep us updated!

Dear Rob, Andy, Black Dog, Mark, Fintan et al,

Thanks for queries, questions and product suggestions :

Colour coded caps, These went prior to receivership of the old company, although we had stock for some period after, they were handy, and we would have liked to have kept them but the supplier insisted on such huge volumes they were no longer viable, we will never compromise on quality...ever...and it was a 'nice to have' but we have to run business that does have to watch its costs, yes we can pass on costs to the end user...but ask a majority of end users 'keep the price the same and grey and black caps, or colour code and increase' I do think a clear majority would go for grey and black ( I may be wrong, I guess the APUG members will enlighten me as usual.

Stocks : I was interested to hear about stocking levels in retail, firstly 99% of our resellers are great supporters of ours, loyal and professional, we have worked very hard to restore our products to the market, and I can tell you that stocks at the factory are at their best level for many years ( you can't sell it if it ain't there, same goes for resellers ) we make thousands of items, some are to minimum order and some are 'make special' , 95% of minimum 'make to order' specials are made in three days, 'make specials' are dependant on raw material inventory, again at the best levels for many years. Distributors do not always have in stock, but your reseller can speak to them and order of course, but be assured the top 200 products should always be in stock at a major country distributor.

Square Paper : We do actually make square paper, usually graded ILFOSPEED for aerial print out applications, but its to special order and with minimum order levels, we do not believe it is viable to produce a square MULTIGRADE paper, whilst everyone would prefer to cut down on waste and be able to buy the exact size they use, printers can cut down to square from larger sheets, and use the 'waste' for test strips.

220 & Postcard : See previous posts :

Glass Negative's

I have been asked if we coat onto glass ?, the simple answer is yes we do, unless I am mistaken I believe we are now the last to do it commercially, the
market we address is a scientific and medical one and therefore we believe it is not just a commercial decision to continue.

To coat glass is very slow ( and to finish it ), skilled and therefore expensive, waste is high, I would be eager to have feedback if people would be interested in us coating a film emulsion onto glass, it would take time but it is possible, but this is very 'boutique' and I would really have to convinced of its commercial vability, but I have been asked the question, so I ask it back.

I did not expect to have time to be on today, pleased I did, and kind regards

Simon.

Simon R Galley said:

220 & Postcard : See previous posts :
Simon.

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When can we expect a more definite answer on 220?

If you are going to slit the film to the correct width for 120 anyway, then it seems that the only extra steps necessary to make 220 would be to cut the film to longer lengths, to alter slightly the imprinting of information on the edge of the film and to attach the appropriate paper leader. Someone commented earlier that a machine used in the process was broken, but I can't imagine what function such a machine would perform that would not also be necessary for 120 production.

So it sounds as if the setup is not a lot different from making 120, and surely there would not be a lot of expense involved in getting "220" boxes and maintaining a couple of extra items in inventory.

So why is there significant extra expense or bother involved in making and stocking 220? Granted, you will sell a lot less of it than 120, but adapting to a shrinking market and smaller quantities is going to be the nature of the business from now on. And the good will of happy and loyal Ilford customers is worth something to the firm, isn't it?

Welcome Simon!

How are things going at Ilford? I mean do you see a bright future for your company or is it more like surviving in the margins? I ask this because we just lost the lovely APX100 and even worse rodinal... etc. I've just had my first serious experience with FP4+ and since I am only in my early 20s I hope for a long relationship to come

Best of luck to Ilford, and in case it is in your powers to give Rodinal a new home...

cheers!
Quinten

A warm welcome to Simon

Simon, great to have you on this forum. This thread is really starting to fill with product requests; I guess that's a good thing, no better way to investigate the market than asking the end users .

I don't have any 'special wishes' at the moment (although I have been wondering about SFX200...), I'm just very happy to see a person like you on this forum. Really gives me a lot of confidence about the future of B&W analogue photography.

I've just been doing B&W analogue for about a month now, after a gap of about 10 years. Lots of people told me I was crazy investing in this "old-fashioned stuff", and I must honestly say that my heart sank a little when I noticed how difficult it is to buy film, paper, chemicals and such compared to 10 years ago. Difficult, but -especially with the help of the internet- not impossible. So, I know I made the right choice and I intend to enjoy this hobby as long as possible.

Hearing this news from Ilford (which has always been my favourite brand in film, paper and chemicals) from an insider like you is heartwarming. It gives me great confidence in the future of my hobby. Yours will be the 'posting of the month'.

I sincerely hope you will keep reading and posting to the forum. Thanks for taking the time.

Chazzy said:

When can we expect a more definite answer on 220?

If you are going to slit the film to the correct width for 120 anyway, then it seems that the only extra steps necessary to make 220 would be to cut the film to longer lengths, to alter slightly the imprinting of information on the edge of the film and to attach the appropriate paper leader. Someone commented earlier that a machine used in the process was broken, but I can't imagine what function such a machine would perform that would not also be necessary for 120 production.

So it sounds as if the setup is not a lot different from making 120, and surely there would not be a lot of expense involved in getting "220" boxes and maintaining a couple of extra items in inventory.

So why is there significant extra expense or bother involved in making and stocking 220? Granted, you will sell a lot less of it than 120, but adapting to a shrinking market and smaller quantities is going to be the nature of the business from now on. And the good will of happy and loyal Ilford customers is worth something to the firm, isn't it?

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It's a very different film if you think about it, so I can understand why it needs a totally different machine. Not only do you have a much longer length of coated emulsion but instead of having a backing paper along the whole length and attached at one end, in 220 films there is no backing paper but there is a paper leader attached to the start of the coated emulsion and then a paper trailer attached to the end of the coated emulsion. In fact it's all been gone into in some detail in earlier threads and Ilford have explained that it is not financially viable to buy a new machine (I believe them) so they are looking into contracting part of the process out. I guess their best bet would be Fuji who still make a lot of professional colour films in 220.

The reality is Ilford are fortunate to be still here and it is unrealistic to expect them to introduce lots of rather estoric product lines or they will be back to where they were a few months ago. If we get HP5+ & FP4+ back in 220 that would be brilliant. But I think asking as one member did for a new Delta 25 to be brought out in 220 is entering the world of fantasy. How many people would actually buy it (as distinct from asking for it) when even old favourite Pan F was never made in this size - no doubt for very sound economic reasons! At this rate we will soon be asking for Ilford to start production of film in 116, 828, 122 and of course in at least 5 different emulsions. I don't think so!

Simon R Galley said:

I have been asked if we coat onto glass ?, the simple answer is yes we do, unless I am mistaken I believe we are now the last to do it commercially, the
market we address is a scientific and medical one and therefore we believe it is not just a commercial decision to continue.

To coat glass is very slow ( and to finish it ), skilled and therefore expensive, waste is high, I would be eager to have feedback if people would be interested in us coating a film emulsion onto glass, it would take time but it is possible, but this is very 'boutique' and I would really have to convinced of its commercial vability, but I have been asked the question, so I ask it back.

...

Simon.

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Simon,

I would be interested in glass plates although I really can't see much of a demand for such a product among the nonscientific/medical crowd. However, I wonder if availability of such special emulsion runs might be posted once in awhile to pictorial photographers or perhaps to let us know what is available in glass plates and where/when we might obtain some.

For example, Kodak TMAX 100 glass plates were (are?) available for scientific use though prohibitively expensive for an individual. However, few pictorial photographers knew of their existence and because of Kodak's distribution scheme, I think one had to be in a certain group to even order the product. If Ilford had something like FP4+ available to everyone, I certainly would purchase some product.

Which emulsions does Ilford coat on glass and what sizes are produced?

Joe

Slavich produces panchromatic and orthochromatic plates suitable for pictorial use that can be purchased from holography suppliers, and the price is still pretty hefty. I doubt that Ilford can beat Slavich's labor costs. I looked into it, and I don't see myself purchasing more than a box or two for experimentation.

Simon,

I'm glad you're here, its great to get the factory feedback and to understand the reasons why or why not a product is available. A few things on my wish list:

A) Multigrade paper developer is only available in North America in 500ml bottles and then jumps to 2.5L. It used to be available in 1 litre bottles, and I looked at your product availibility list and it is sold in 1L bottles in Europe. Any reason it's not available in Canada? I really like to reuse the bottles for holding the mixed solutions of ID-11, fixer paper developer etc and the 1 L is just the right size.

B) Do you have any thoughs of introducing a developer like Xtol? Kodak only makes it in pouches to make 5L, and it tends to go bad befoe I can use 5L, so I've stuck with the 1L sizes of ID-11. However, Delta 100 in Xtol gives beautiful tones.

C) I really like the weight of Galerie paper ( and the defunct Kodak Elite), but I use split graded printing, which isn't possible with graded paper. Is there a chance of a heavy weight (like Elite's weight) multigrade paper, either FB or RC, it doesn't matter to me.

Simon R Galley said:

Thanks for the welcome to APUG, I have visited many times and APUG is well known by all at ILFORD Photo, HARMAN technology Limited. If I can help be clarifying information I will certainly do so, yes I want to know what monochrome customers want, what issues are out there, I am here to learn.

Simon.

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Err. Could Ilford-Harman consider to manufacture a Vitamin-C/Phenidone film developer in sirup form ?

thx, MArc.

Delta 3200 sheet film?

Hi Simon,

It is very gratifying to see Ilford reaching out to its dedicated end users. Thank-you!

Question: Is there any possibility of ever seeing Delta 3200 in 4X5 sheet film size?

My high speed film of choice today is HP5 pushed two stops in Microphen, which gives good enough results. There may be enough of a market to consider packaging Delta 3200 in 4X5

Cheers,
Hank Carter

Great to hear that things are going well at Ilford. As long as there are steady supplies of FP4+ and HP5+ I'm a happy camper. Some of the new ideas being thrown around sound great but my only concern would be that Ilford decides to invest in numerous niche or "boutique" (as Simon say) items that may not generate enough profit to be viable. It would be nice to have a 25 ISO film, but in all reality how well would it sell? Agfa and Kodak stopped making them for this reason and Tech-Pan only became a hot seller once it was announced it would be discontinued. B+H actually still has some of it sitting around in 4X5 I believe. I am not trying to be negative or rain on the parade but I honestly believe that Ilford is the last "sure thing" in the world of traditional B+W and I would hate to see them get in any more financial trouble by heavily investing in products that aren't exactly in high demand. As it is there isn't much I need that Ilford doesn't make. All of their films seem to sell quite well and perhaps it is best to focus on those current products rather than dedicate any substantial capital to products with a skeptical demand. Anyway thats just my opinion and since Simon knows the industry far better than myself I'm sure Ilford will do the right thing. They certainly are a company that makes quality products.

P.S. Funny, I don't recall a Kodak rep stopping by to gather opinions from the film shooters that made them what they are!

Depends on the model I think. If Ilford can make special runs that are pre-sold then that's a much different thing then trying to keep shop shelves stocked. For niche products I wonder how much of a problem it is to have 1000 stores all with two rolls or a box of film. If Ilford could say "We will make a run when it's 80% pre-sold" then they might be able to make some very niche products.

Simon, as many others have said, welcome. As Ilford has become perhaps the most important player remaining in the B&W photography industry it is gratifying that you have been taking the time to address many of the questions and concerns of the members of APUG. I have had some recent issues with one of your products, a product that is closely attached to my livlihood, and I have to report that I have received excellent support and serious time/consideration from your US representative Rod Parsons. This problem has yet to be resolved as it is a complicated one, but I am confident that we will see progress very soon as Rod has assured me that Ilford is commited to making the finest quality products possible. His efforts on my behalf support this commitment.

The news of a possible Delta 25 being developed is good news indeed. Many of us seek the highest image quality possible. If the wonderful qualities of Delta 100 can be incorporated into a film with even finer grain, I would be inclined to switch from my current film 120 T-max 100. A film with many good qualities, but some compromises as well. I am also curious if Ilford would consider a readyload/quickload type technology. Those of us who produce large print editions find the lack of dust and pinholes in negs produced from readyloads to be a major time saver and quality enhancer. I know that kodak and Fuji must have patents or exclusive rights to their designs, however if there's some way for a similar product to be released with ilford film, I think there would be a ready market for it.

Anyway , enough of my wish list. Again welcome to APUG and continued success at Ilford/Harman