Perceptol lives! [And more news from Ilford representative!]

FrankB · Dec 5, 2005

mikeg said:
Jessops do seem to be clearing out their darkroom stuff now, I presume for good, so it may be worth popping into your local branch and seeing what they've got. Recently, I've been in Hereford, Shrewsbury and Worcester branches and they've all got darkroom stuff on sale. Worcester had 20% off paper and chemicals and I was tempted by an LPL 12x16 masking frame in Shrewsbury for 12 pounds but I think I'll save up for an RRB one.

One quick word of warning - Jacobs in Liverpool have a small stack of darkroom paper. It's all Ilford RC Cooltone and has been there to my certain knowledge for about three years!

If high-street paper stocks really are going at silly prices then it might be worth a bid (haggle too!), but bear in mind that some of it will have been there since Fox Talbot was a boy...

antielectrons · Dec 5, 2005

It's been interesting reading the comments about Jessops. Personally I have always found them to be useless, even in films heydey. I bought a digital camera from them a few years back and they seemed to do their darnest to loose the sale - however I was adamant I wanted to buy the camera so eventually succeeded...

All this brings me to something I think is sorely needed from ILFORD. And that would be for them to start selling their products online from their website. I understand that many brick and mortar stores no longer want to carry analogue stock that may go out of date before being sold and that in any event they want to dedicate floor space to more lucrative digital products (and you gotta agree they must be making a killing selling the toys that pass as cameras nowadays..). So how about it ILFORD? You have a large, widespread and loyal customer base that I am sure would not mind paying shipping fees in order to get the products they need, when they need, without worry. You never now, they might even sell MORE products that way. It works for Apple.

Antonio

Fintan · Dec 5, 2005

antielectrons said:
All this brings me to something I think is sorely needed from ILFORD. And that would be for them to start selling their products online from their website.
Antonio

I have to disagree with that. I think that would affect Ilfords relationship with the resellers across the globe. Lots of students dont have credit cards and they buy a helluva lot of paper/films/chemicals.

I do think they could buyout or partner some UK based darkroom supplier and build a slick ecommerce website.

ajuk · Dec 5, 2005

I would not of thought that paper in Jacobs you talked about is the first I would go for, why not just stock regular B&W paper!

antielectrons · Dec 5, 2005

Fintan said:
I have to disagree with that. I think that would affect Ilfords relationship with the resellers across the globe. Lots of students dont have credit cards and they buy a helluva lot of paper/films/chemicals.

I do think they could buyout or partner some UK based darkroom supplier and build a slick ecommerce website.

From the evidence in this thread the "resellers" dont seem to care about the Ilford business one way or another. Perhaps they would get their act together if Ilford started selling direct too.... Competition never hurt any other business, don't see why it would hurt B&W film. Seems to me that the Jessops of this world have it their own way far too much.

As to students and credit/debit cards I think you are living in the last milenium. Everybody can now buy with a card from the web... at least in most parts of the developed/developing world. A large enough chunk I would have thought to make the business viable.

FrankB · Dec 6, 2005

ajuk said:
I would not of thought that paper in Jacobs you talked about is the first I would go for, why not just stock regular B&W paper!

When I first notced the stack a few years ago I did ask why they didn't get in any MGIV RC or MGWT. The answer?

"Well, we never sell any of that paper, so we're certainly not going to buy any more!"

Hmmm.... :rolleyes: <shrug>

I pop in from time to time to see if any of it's gone, but nope - same stack, same content...

They do however have an excellent selection of Lowepro, Tamrac and Crumpler pro-spec camera bags and backpacks, useful to size gear up and get a hands-on feel for the kit.

antielectrons · Dec 6, 2005

Sad but true Frank. More proof, if any were needed, that Ilford really needs to start controlling the retail experience through it own web store. I mentioned Apple in my previous post - it is no coincidence that their business started to pick up when they invested in excellent online and bricks and mortar presence. If they had to rely on resellers to promote the brand and its products I don't think they would be where they are now. Resellers will be wanting to jump on the band wagon as soon as sales pick up, you can count on it!

abeku · Dec 6, 2005

antielectrons said:
All this brings me to something I think is sorely needed from ILFORD. And that would be for them to start selling their products online from their website.

That's an idea that appeals to me. I buy all my consumables from abroad (EU/Japan) so it would be ideal to buy directly from UK. There are some great local photo stores locally but they are not very keen on being updated on the analog market, instead they have a standard repertoire that's continously shrinking. I doubt, I will see the Ilford Postcard in the store (unless I tell them, which I've already had).
I also believe that most students have a credit card, they are always looking for the best price (like I do) and don't hesitate to order student literature from e.g. amazon.com...

nihraguk · Dec 6, 2005

Brings to mind a negative reseller experience I had recently:

Asked the guy at the *only* Ilford stockist in the country if he stocked "Ilford postcard paper"; he said he did, and handed me a box of 100. He wrote up a receipt for me that indicated he had sold me "P/C" Ilford paper. On the way home, I noticed that nowhere on the box did it indicate that it was postcard paper, and true enough, when I opened the box and printed a sheet of it, there was no postcard stuff printed on the other side.

I called up the store the next day; the lady who picked up the phone told me "oh we don't stock that *special* Ilford postcard paper with the postcard info printed behind... over _here_ when we talk about 'postcard' paper we just mean paper in postcard dimensions... you should have asked for *special* postcard paper instead of just 'postcard' paper." She didn't want to give me a refund (which I guess is understandable since I opened the box and might have been a raving idiot who did so in bright daylight). I decided not to pursue the matter. But I found it frustrating and unreasonable of the reseller to expect me to be fluent in the store's weird "special postcard paper" lingo, as opposed to just calling products by their manufacturer-designated names.

This anecdote illustrates: (a) the fact that certain resellers don't stock interesting, lovely Ilford products like the postcard paper, and (b) it pays to double confirm that you're getting what you asked for.

antielectrons · Dec 6, 2005

Abeku, I was giving some more thought about the student/credit card angle last night. I think if you look at sales of Apple's iPod you one can quickly understand that times have changed. Online sales channels dont necessarily have to replace old sales channels, but they can open up entire new markets... Iford will need to become a lean, competitive machine if it is to continue for another 50 years and I firmly believe that online sales will help it achieve that, both for its analogue and digital products. Just offer bricks and mortar stores competitive prices and they will be happy.

abeku · Dec 6, 2005

Antielectrons, eh... in my post I just confirmed and supported what you wrote earlier... Also in the post above, I agree that online sales channes dont have to replace old sales channels, I know severable good examples here in Sweden where you can buy either directly from the manufacturer or in common stores in Stockholm.

antielectrons · Dec 6, 2005

abeku said:
Antielectrons, eh... in my post I just confirmed and supported what you wrote earlier... .

Hi, yes I know. Didn't mean to give the impression that we disagreed... Was just trying to follow up my previous message and reply to you at the same time.

Was buying some Lego recently for my son. Costs more from the Lego site but you are guaranteed availability if you want to pay the delivery costs... If not it is cheaper in stores but you may not always get the bits you want.

Aggie · Dec 6, 2005

While on the surface the online sales seem to be a great idea, there are other problems it would create. Some of the retail stores you have encountered have been less than what you want. There are many that are struggling and are very good. This kind of move would kill their store front presence. Not all are like your Jessops in the UK. Would killing off most the retail outlets in the world by this kind of a move by the manufacturer help to keep film alive? It would make it only accessible if you use a computer. Some of us (until recently for me) did have very good store fronts close at hand. Now I would have to wait many days if not weeks for the things I need. I'm stubborn enough to make the wait. Would everyone who is shooting film today wait? It raises far more questions and problems than it will solve. All angles of this question would need to be addressed.

As to students, not long ago I was taking photography classes again. Most students I know do not buy in quantities that would make that a viable option. That and those same students are the ones that would be unable to pay high postage rates, especially from the UK. Yeah credit/debit cards are more wide spread but they still have their limitations, like avaiable credit/cash.

A better way to ensure the supply would be to do what digital did. Market the hell out of the product and get the message that traditional is alive and well. The old addage, "fight fire with fire."

antielectrons · Dec 6, 2005

Aggie, you seem to be arguing that online sales would be such a massive success that they would hurt traditional stores and that therefore this would be a bad thing. However, you can already buy material online from stores that have adopted the web. Problem is they are not always well stocked... hence the original suggestion that online sales from Ilford would deal with this.

What is clear however is that if Ilford stay in business just to support traditional photo stores, rather than innovate and give the customer what they want and thereby ensure a market alive for the future then the traditional stores will have not future at all.

And as you yourself point out, not everybody is going to want to buy online anyway.

Antonio

Aggie said:
While on the surface the online sales seem to be a great idea, there are other problems it would create. Some of the retail stores you have encountered have been less than what you want. There are many that are struggling and are very good. This kind of move would kill their store front presence. Not all are like your Jessops in the UK. Would killing off most the retail outlets in the world by this kind of a move by the manufacturer help to keep film alive? It would make it only accessible if you use a computer. Some of us (until recently for me) did have very good store fronts close at hand. Now I would have to wait many days if not weeks for the things I need. I'm stubborn enough to make the wait. Would everyone who is shooting film today wait? It raises far more questions and problems than it will solve. All angles of this question would need to be addressed.

As to students, not long ago I was taking photography classes again. Most students I know do not buy in quantities that would make that a viable option. That and those same students are the ones that would be unable to pay high postage rates, especially from the UK. Yeah credit/debit cards are more wide spread but they still have their limitations, like avaiable credit/cash.

Aggie · Dec 6, 2005

No what I implied was that other markets would not be able to compete with Ilford should they do such a thing, thus limiting it to one place to do business with for Ilford products. Why sell as an OEM if you have the manufacturer as your competition? This is just saying it would kill off those whare already sellin g those products. Ilford wants to expand, not narow it's scope. Better to show what can be done with the medium and expand to those who say that film is dead and there are no products. Those are the people to be concerned with. Truth is better than hearsay. Having a one source product will kill it off faster than the outlets that are in place now.

antielectrons · Dec 6, 2005

Aggie said:
No what I implied was that other markets would not be able to compete with Ilford should they do such a thing, thus limiting it to one place to do business with for Ilford products. Why sell as an OEM if you have the manufacturer as your competition? This is just saying it would kill off those whare already sellin g those products. Ilford wants to expand, not narow it's scope. Better to show what can be done with the medium and expand to those who say that film is dead and there are no products. Those are the people to be concerned with. Truth is better than hearsay. Having a one source product will kill it off faster than the outlets that are in place now.

Aggie, I do not think there is any evidence that this has occurred with other vendors who sell online direct as many now do. At the end of the day however Ilford needs to stay in business, and the only way they can do that is to sell more products. Currently you cant buy there stuff even if you want to in many places. That is wrong.

Aggie · Dec 6, 2005

I don't know exactly where you live, but if a small little bump in the road on a non major highway in South Eastern Utah carries Ilford, I think it is out there. What is the problem is the stores that have gone digital and are refusing to acknowledge there is film let alone Ilford. Online sales yes, but you need store fronts as well. You are being very short sighted in thinking only Ilford selling direct will save their company. It is a complex situation that should not cut off any avenue of revenue. Since there are other companies that carry Ilford online, Why do we need Ilford to set up that system themselves? They again would be a competitor of the online people and drive them out of business. You see the thought of Ilford jumping in to sell directly will only in the long run limit the sources. I want to keep Ilford alive as much as the next. That is why those small places that carry Ilford I will gladly purchase from. That way the supply will continue.

antielectrons · Dec 6, 2005

Aggie,

I live in Spain. No Ilford products for 200 miles where I live. Have to order it in from Madrid, and then not all products are available.... neither from the big stores nor the small ones. I spoke to a small store owner the other day and he said it was not worth his while carrying many products as the risk of them going out of date was too great given low turnover. End result: no product on shelves.

Nobody said that online should replace store fronts. Both are needed.

Your argument that Ilford should only sell through stores, to protect stores, means that Ilford should put the benefit of stores (as you see it at least) before that of customers. I think that is wrong. In a healthy market many different sales channels can co-exist. The customer chooses which suits them best. If you want to help the small store owner you just give them nice discounts on products so that they are not at a competitive disadvantage price-wise. But what you cannot do is have customers turn to other products/vendors because your product is not available to buy.

If film is to survive in the face of the digital onslaught it needs to remain accessible.

All the best,
Antonio

Aggie said:
I don't know exactly where you live, but if a small little bump in the road on a non major highway in South Eastern Utah carries Ilford, I think it is out there. What is the problem is the stores that have gone digital and are refusing to acknowledge there is film let alone Ilford. Online sales yes, but you need store fronts as well. You are being very short sighted in thinking only Ilford selling direct will save their company. It is a complex situation that should not cut off any avenue of revenue. Since there are other companies that carry Ilford online, Why do we need Ilford to set up that system themselves? They again would be a competitor of the online people and drive them out of business. You see the thought of Ilford jumping in to sell directly will only in the long run limit the sources. I want to keep Ilford alive as much as the next. That is why those small places that carry Ilford I will gladly purchase from. That way the supply will continue.

Aggie · Dec 6, 2005

I never said they should put the needs of the stores ahead of the customers. DO NOT PUT WORDS IN THAT I HAVE NOT TYPED! If Ilford goes out of business, the customers needs are not met. If they are not able to expand their base of distribution, albeit not to where you would most likely want it, they will have problems. There are places already you can order from online. Why have the manufacturer compete with who they need to expand their distribution?

antielectrons said:
Aggie,

I live in Spain. No Ilford products for 200 miles where I live. Have to order it in from Madrid, and then not all products are available.... neither from the big stores nor the small ones. I spoke to a small store owner the other day and he said it was not worth his while carrying many products as the risk of them going out of date was too great given low turnover. End result: no product on shelves.

Nobody said that online should replace store fronts. Both are needed.

Your argument that Ilford should only sell through stores, to protect stores, means that Ilford should put the benefit of stores (as you see it at least) before that of customers.

All the best,
Antonio

antielectrons · Dec 6, 2005

Aggie said:
I never said they should put the needs of the stores ahead of the customers. DO NOT PUT WORDS IN THAT I HAVE NOT TYPED! If Ilford goes out of business, the customers needs are not met. If they are not able to expand their base of distribution, albeit not to where you would most likely want it, they will have problems. There are places already you can order from online. Why have the manufacturer compete with who they need to expand their distribution?

Aggie, we agree then - both can exist.

Antonio

Andy K · Dec 6, 2005

Abeku, AntiElectrons and Aggie, this was posted much earlier in the thread by Simon R Galley. I have highlighted the relevent section.

Simon R Galley said:
Dear Andy,
Thanks for your note, firstly we are obviously aware of the high regard RODINAL is held in, I just think we should wait to see the final outcome of the AGFA Photo situation is..
As to supply, we have many loyal resellers of our product in the UK and around the World many of whom have sold our products for decades, if you are having problems with an individual store, speak to the store manager or find a good stockist, or one of the mail order guys, very good for our more esoteric products.

We do review our route to market options obviously, but we are not equipped to supply direct. sorry Simon.

Fintan · Dec 6, 2005

Exactly Andy thanks for posting. Nothing like an armchair economist explaining what your strategy should or should not be.

BTW Antonio theres lots of places do online sales. try google . One was recently posted from France called http://www.prophot.fr/ maybe its worth checking out.

One thing I would like Ilford to do is put up a list of suppliers on their website. Hopefully Simon can put that on his to-do list

antielectrons · Dec 6, 2005

Fintan said:
Exactly Andy thanks for posting. Nothing like an armchair economist explaining what your strategy should or should not be.

BTW Antonio theres lots of places do online sales. try google . One was recently posted from France called http://www.prophot.fr/ maybe its worth checking out.

One thing I would like Ilford to do is put up a list of suppliers on their website. Hopefully Simon can put that on his to-do list

Flintan, the quote posted by Andy says they are not equipped to sell direct (no news there), not that they should not or would not be doing so in future. I still think it would be a good idea and find it a bit odd that some are so resistant to it. Sure, I could hunt round every online store in every country in the world to find the product I need, but who is going to bother to do that. If that is Ilfords attitude towards customers who are having problems locating their products then I am not sure they are that bothered about growing the business. Product availability has to be one of the main areas of concern of any business.

Andy K · Dec 6, 2005

antielectrons said:
. Sure, I could hunt round every online store in every country in the world to find the product I need, but who is going to bother to do that. .

I do, and many others do. Yes it would be convenient to order direct from Ilford, but as Simon R Galley (a member of the Ilford Management team) says, they are not equipped to do so. To my knowledge they never have been equipped to do so.
You cannot buy direct from many companies. Apple is an exception, not the rule.
So can we please see an end to this pointless discussion which has dragged this thread way off topic, and appears to be turning sour.

antielectrons · Dec 6, 2005

Andy K said:
I do, and many others do. Yes it would be convenient to order direct from Ilford, but as Simon R Galley (a member of the Ilford Management team) says, they are not equipped to do so. To my knowledge they never have been equipped to do so.
You cannot buy direct from many companies. Apple is an exception, not the rule.
So can we please see an end to this pointless discussion which has dragged this thread way off topic, and appears to be turning sour.

Andy, if Ilfrod were equipped to deal direct we wouldn't be having this conversation. I think you may be a bit out of touch, many companies now sell direct through the web. If the discussion has no point to it in your opinion then don't participate. No sourness here, just healthy debate. This is the product availability forum and we are discussing how to make Ilford products more available in a thread that has news from and discussion with the Ilford representative. Exactly how is this "off topic".

Perceptol lives! [And more news from Ilford representative!]

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