Pentaxian Guidance: What's your favorite Pentax SLR body?

Les Sarile · Dec 1, 2020

Huss said:
Ya while I like my LX, it perhaps is the most over rated 35mm slr available. Aside from it's OTF long exposures ability (that the Oly OM2 and OM4 also has), it does nothing that my dirt cheap Pentax slrs can't do. In some cases less - no AE hold.
And yet it is perhaps the most unreliable Pentax currently on the market! I just bought a (2nd) Nikon F4 that is like new, works perfectly, for $100 less than my LX. The F4 is built way better, and it has real additional features that actually make a difference in photography. AF, AE hold, different metering patterns, a range of shutter speeds that make sense/are useable in 'normal' every day photography. I'll take 1/8000 sec over 4 minutes any day!
Yes the F4 is much bigger, but I don't care. If I'm carrying a camera, I'm carrying a camera.
Don't get me wrong, I like my LX but for emotional not pragmatic reasons.

As you pointed out, AE lock is simply a manual override of autoexposure and so switching the shutter dial from A to the desired shutter speed is intuitive and requires no additional controls that may fail. This is in keeping with Pentax sophisticated design. For instance, there is no viewfinder blind because the meter is not subject to external light influence. There are no additional multiexpose controls but it can multiexpose any frame - forward of backward, due to it's frame accurate film handling that doesn't require you to take up the slack on the rewind side.

I applaud Olympus design of the OM1 & OM2 and I am not so sure they would have come out with the MX and LX without this. But the MX is smaller in body and even bigger full info viewfinder. The OM2 may have been first to provide OTF but LX took it a step further. Unlike the OM2 which has two sets of metering cels - CDS in the VF and silicone in the mirror box, the LX only has one cel in the mirror box used in all exposure modes. This setup was adopted by OM3 & OM4 and I do like the spot metering. Sure, the OM2 (not the 2N) can autoexpose for up to 19 minutes but this is greatly limited by settings. You can read more about it at http://www.zuiko.com/web_5__20150924_032.htm if you're interested. The LX has no such limitations and can autoexpose reliably/repeatedly for hours.

I think it's fair to compare the 1980 Pentax LX to a 1988 Nikon F4 and I can also list functionalities that the F4 cannot do such as work batteryless, manually critically focus, work with Pentax glass, work with Pentax TTL flash, fit in my pocket and of course autoexpose as scene for as long as it takes, all the while monitoring the scene for changes in lighting and ajusting exposure accordingly.

None of your cheaper or more expensive cameras can do what the LX can because there is no camera - past or present, that can. And just because this is not your mode of photography or that you paid more for it does not diminish what it can do. All I can say is you may have bought the wrong tool and that is not the fault of the LX.

Chan Tran · Dec 2, 2020

Huss said:
Yes I know what it is for. But it does not make for any reason why it should not to be able to hold the exposure value. As it is already giving you one before exposure. Because obviously if you are using AE lock, you have decided on what you want the exposure to be. The camera doesn't vary exposure when in manual mode. AE lock acts as an instant manual override.

But I think it is why. You notice that the OM-2 doesn't have AE lock either.

Paul Howell · Dec 2, 2020

Huss said:
Ya while I like my LX, it perhaps is the most over rated 35mm slr available. Aside from it's OTF long exposures ability (that the Oly OM2 and OM4 also has), it does nothing that my dirt cheap Pentax slrs can't do. In some cases less - no AE hold.
And yet it is perhaps the most unreliable Pentax currently on the market! I just bought a (2nd) Nikon F4 that is like new, works perfectly, for $100 less than my LX. The F4 is built way better, and it has real additional features that actually make a difference in photography. AF, AE hold, different metering patterns, a range of shutter speeds that make sense/are useable in 'normal' every day photography. I'll take 1/8000 sec over 4 minutes any day!
Yes the F4 is much bigger, but I don't care. If I'm carrying a camera, I'm carrying a camera.
Don't get me wrong, I like my LX but for emotional not pragmatic reasons.

The F4 is a generation newer than the LX, when working as a PJ weight was a very real factor, not just a camera, a motor drive, a few lens, a flash, often times a second body. 8 to 12 hours days, much of it on your feet. The LX was the only Pentax body with interchangeable view finders, had options for both motor drive and winder, I was tempted to trade in my F2 for the LX, but stuck with Nikon F3P as I had Nikon lens and my employer paid for 1/2 of the F3, Nikon was a very robust world wide network of repairs centers, and I usably rent Nikon Lens in most large cities. As for AE hold, seldom use it, more often will switch to manual mode and bracket. The Pentax to compare the F4 was the PZ1, a nice camera, but not close to a F4.

Huss · Dec 2, 2020

Les Sarile said:
None of your cheaper or more expensive cameras can do what the LX can because there is no camera - past or present, that can. And just because this is not your mode of photography or that you paid more for it does not diminish what it can do. All I can say is you may have bought the wrong tool and that is not the fault of the LX.

The only thing the LX has going for it is size and OTF for really long exposures. Really long exposures is a tiny subset of photography, so if that was what Pentax was aiming for, mission accomplished!
Unfortunately OTF does not accommodate for film reciprocity failure during really long exposures so for many using a bulb setting and manually timing it out provides more accurate exposures.
The majority of the time you are just getting a center weighted body w/ a 1/2000 sec top speed. One can argue that a Nikon FM3A is a superior device because it has a shutter that goes up to 1/4000, has all of its speeds mechanically capable if the batteries expire (not just down to X as the LX), has the AE lock, is a similar size. And does not crumble electronically due to age.
While the F4 came out after the LX, they were sold in the market at the same time. As for the argument that the LX has a better manual focus capability - perhaps. But that does not take into account that if you use the F4's AF confirmation dot with manual focus lenses, you can focus it more accurately than the LX. And of course, it also has AF. Plus, there are several replacement focus screens that make mf very accurate - the type K comes to mind.

I often hear the belated cry 'what happens if you run out of batteries'? Yeah, what happens if you run out of film? Packing a spare set of 4 AA batteries is not much of a hardship, much less so than packing extra film.

Thing is, if I stuck to a smallish mf SLR, I'd pick the Nikon F3 or a Leica R5/RE/R7 over the LX in a heartbeat. The Leicas provide the lenses, and bodies that offer 3 meter modes and 2 metering patterns, as well as AE lock. All incredibly intuitively to use.

The one thing the LX has going for it is the Billy Connelly OchAyeDeNoo Limited Edition:

flavio81 · Dec 2, 2020

Les Sarile said:
I applaud Olympus design of the OM1 & OM2 and I am not so sure they would have come out with the MX and LX without this. But the MX is smaller in body and even bigger full info viewfinder. The OM2 may have been first to provide OTF but LX took it a step further. Unlike the OM2 which has two sets of metering cels - CDS in the VF and silicone in the mirror box, the LX only has one cel in the mirror box used in all exposure modes. This setup was adopted by OM3 & OM4 and I do like the spot metering. Sure, the OM2 (not the 2N) can autoexpose for up to 19 minutes but this is greatly limited by settings. You can read more about it at http://www.zuiko.com/web_5__20150924_032.htm if you're interested. The LX has no such limitations and can autoexpose reliably/repeatedly for hours.

This is the kind of well-informed posts that make this forum great. Well done LesDMess.

flavio81 · Dec 2, 2020

Huss said:
Really long exposures is a tiny subset of photography, (...)
One can argue that a Nikon FM3A is a superior device because it has a shutter that goes up to 1/4000, has all of its speeds mechanically capable if the batteries expire (not just down to X as the LX), has the AE lock, is a similar size

I've tried a LX and it has a higher build quality (& fit and finish) than the FM2 and FM3A. Last FM2 i got, I sold it in a week because I did not like the build quality at all. I kept the FE which at least has the auto mode (like the FM3a) and is able to mount non-AI lenses. But build quality is evidently inferior to a F3 or F2.

And i'd say that anything over 1/1000 speed is a tiny subset of photography.

Huss said:
Thing is, if I stuck to a smallish mf SLR, I'd pick the Nikon F3 or a Leica R5/RE/R7 over the LX in a heartbeat

The LX is smaller than a F3, and has a much better viewfinder than the F3 (the MX also has a better viewfinder). I like my F3 but the viewfinder is a pain point. And I do have about 5 interchangeable screens.

George Mann · Dec 2, 2020

flavio81 said:
But build quality is evidently inferior to a F3 or F2.

Which is why I stick to the EL/Nikkormat series.

flavio81 said:
I like my F3 but the viewfinder is a pain point. And I do have about 5 interchangeable screens.

Do you like the F2's viewfinder better?

Huss · Dec 2, 2020

flavio81 said:
The LX is smaller than a F3, and has a much better viewfinder than the F3 (the MX also has a better viewfinder). I like my F3 but the viewfinder is a pain point. And I do have about 5 interchangeable screens.

Much better vf? The MX's is large but you cannot see more than 2/3 of it if you wear glasses, and only all of it if you jam your eye into it. The LX's is nice, has a better exposure readout (especially for manual metering), but the F3 has that excellent center circle that indicate the 80% meter bias. So the focus screen of the F3 is excellent, but yes the meter readouts are goofy. My Pentax SuperA has much better LCDs! And also better lighting for them when you activate it!

Huss · Dec 2, 2020

George Mann said:
Do you like the F2's viewfinder better?

The F2 definitely has a much better exposure readout in the VF than the F3.

Huss · Dec 2, 2020

flavio81 said:
And i'd say that anything over 1/1000 speed is a tiny subset of photography..

1/1000 sec = f11 w/ ISO 400 film in sunshine.
1/8000 sec = f4 w/ ISO 400 in sunshine. So you get the option to use 3 more aperture settings in sunshine. I hardly consider that a tiny subset of photography.

Cholentpot · Dec 2, 2020

Huss said:
The F2 definitely has a much better exposure readout in the VF than the F3.

My only gripe with the F3 is the meter reader. I don't like it much.

Les Sarile · Dec 2, 2020

Huss said:
Unfortunately OTF does not accommodate for film reciprocity failure during really long exposures so for many using a bulb setting and manually timing it out provides more accurate exposures.

Are you aware of any camera - past or present, that can account for reciprocity?

All film docs I've seen state the generic test it for yourself and see. The Kodak Ektar 100 doc states, "For critical applications with longer exposure times, make tests under your conditions."

Under controlled lighting conditions, results scanned with my Coolscan with no pre or post work show no color shifts at all.

After these I didn't conduct any more testing as you can't even tell the difference.

The most color variations you will find are from ambient lighting. These from Kodak Ektar 100 - daylight and night shot

Going back to Pentax elegant design, I wonder if they purposely designed the sync port to be in close position for the whole time the LX is open as this gave me the idea to design an external indicator (in this case LED) to let me know when the exposure is done. Before this I had to constantly peer in the VF to see if it was done. Royal PIA for the extremely long autoexposures.

I personally see no issues with using bulb mode - which the LX also has. I am not averse to using technology afterall they are tools to a goal.

I wanted to see what 1/8000 of a second looks like so I blew through a roll of Fuji Provia 400 in the desert sun. Stopped the golf ball pretty well . . .

10fps on my EOS 1VHS + EF 70–200mm f/2.8L IS on Fuji Press 800 comes in handy sometimes . . .

EOS 3 ECF + EF 600mm F4 on Fuji RVP100 but slow enough to blur the props while panning works well . . .

Yup, the LX can't capture these images in this manner, but none of these can capture what the LX can either . . .

Hard to argue that Nikon was the top of the bygone era and to that I say render unto Caesar . . . but there is one Nikon product that I consider the best beyond compare and it isn't a camera . . .

It's unfortunate your LX has issues but it happens to even the best.

Huss · Dec 3, 2020

Les Sarile said:
It's unfortunate your LX has issues but it happens to even the best.

It had issues. Fixed! Now that I've used it for a while (and enjoyed doing so), I don't understand what the hype is all about. I will say it has a feel in the hand that my other Pentaxes do not (MX,ME, K2, SupA).
That is a very nice thing.

Huss · Dec 3, 2020

Les Sarile said:
Going back to Pentax elegant design, I wonder if they purposely designed the sync port to be in close position for the whole time the LX is open as this gave me the idea to design an external indicator (in this case LED) to let me know when the exposure is done. Before this I had to constantly peer in the VF to see if it was done. Royal PIA for the extremely long autoexposures.
.

Couldn't you just look at the shutter cocked indicator? The red dot will disappear once the exposure is complete.

Les Sarile · Dec 3, 2020

Huss said:
Couldn't you just look at the shutter cocked indicator? The red dot will disappear once the exposure is complete.

The shutter cocked indicator would show me that the shutter is cocked but not that the shutter is open during exposure. Besides, it cost practically nothing to make just a little time.

The results from the LX ultra long autoexposures look like a typical well lit setting, like this one > 20 minutes on Kodak Ektar100.

As you can imagine, these settings can be very dark. I took a pic of the LX wile autoexposing on my phone and below is what that looked like. About middle height and to the right is the LED that is on drapped behind the LX. That tiny red dot would not be visible to the naked eye . . .

Huss · Dec 3, 2020

Forgot to mention, that series with the cheer squad is very cool!

flavio81 · Dec 3, 2020

Huss said:
1/1000 sec = f11 w/ ISO 400 film in sunshine.
1/8000 sec = f4 w/ ISO 400 in sunshine. So you get the option to use 3 more aperture settings in sunshine. I hardly consider that a tiny subset of photography.

1/1000 at f11 with ISO 400 is a very very shiny day (f16 at 1/500).

Since we're talking about 35mm photography, i'd reply that if i'm going to shoot at such bright weather, i would rather use ISO 100 or even less. Hey, even ISO 25 would be just fine in those conditions.

In other words, if you have a sunny day, you'd be much better using slowed film.

flavio81 · Dec 3, 2020

Huss said:
So the focus screen of the F3 is excellent,

I disagree. It's a very poor viewfinder compared to other pro cameras including the F2. I like my F3, but the viewfinder image is a low point. And, as I mentioned, I do have many focusing screens for the F3: Standard, all matte, clear K2/K3 screen (useless for checking DOF or the actual image), and a couple more.

Sadly it seems to be a consequence of the F3 mirror, which diverts light to the sensor on the bottom on the camera.

George Mann · Dec 3, 2020

flavio81 said:
1/1000 at f11 with ISO 400 is a very very shiny day (f16 at 1/500).

Heck, out here in the desert, I have seen 1/1000 @ F8 with asa 100!

CMoore · Dec 3, 2020

Les Sarile said:
Are you aware of any camera - past or present, that can account for reciprocity?

All film docs I've seen state the generic test it for yourself and see. The Kodak Ektar 100 doc states, "For critical applications with longer exposure times, make tests under your conditions."

Under controlled lighting conditions, results scanned with my Coolscan with no pre or post work show no color shifts at all.

After these I didn't conduct any more testing as you can't even tell the difference.

The most color variations you will find are from ambient lighting. These from Kodak Ektar 100 - daylight and night shot

Going back to Pentax elegant design, I wonder if they purposely designed the sync port to be in close position for the whole time the LX is open as this gave me the idea to design an external indicator (in this case LED) to let me know when the exposure is done. Before this I had to constantly peer in the VF to see if it was done. Royal PIA for the extremely long autoexposures.

I personally see no issues with using bulb mode - which the LX also has. I am not averse to using technology afterall they are tools to a goal.

I wanted to see what 1/8000 of a second looks like so I blew through a roll of Fuji Provia 400 in the desert sun. Stopped the golf ball pretty well . . .

10fps on my EOS 1VHS + EF 70–200mm f/2.8L IS on Fuji Press 800 comes in handy sometimes . . .

EOS 3 ECF + EF 600mm F4 on Fuji RVP100 but slow enough to blur the props while panning works well . . .

Yup, the LX can't capture these images in this manner, but none of these can capture what the LX can either . . .

Hard to argue that Nikon was the top of the bygone era and to that I say render unto Caesar . . . but there is one Nikon product that I consider the best beyond compare and it isn't a camera . . .

It's unfortunate your LX has issues but it happens to even the best.

I have just a basic understanding of AC/DC electronics.
Your "Exposure Done" LED......
Does that flash sync port get hit with voltage when the shutter closes.?
Thank You

Les Sarile · Dec 3, 2020

CMoore said:
I have just a basic understanding of AC/DC electronics.
Your "Exposure Done" LED......
Does that flash sync port get hit with voltage when the shutter closes.?
Thank You

The sync port is normally open switch and closes when the shutter fires and stays closed for the duration allowing the battery to conduct through the LED. Opening back when done. So like a flashlight switch and you provide the LED and battery. Flash sync cable one side to negative of battery and the other side to the LED then to the positive. LEDs generally are polarity sensitive only conducting in one direction. Bought the LED candle from the dollar store that comes with a coin battery. Bought the battery coin holder from auction but cheapest comes as a package of many.

CMoore · Dec 3, 2020

Les Sarile said:
The sync port is normally open switch and closes when the shutter fires and stays closed for the duration allowing the battery to conduct through the LED. Opening back when done. So like a flashlight switch and you provide the LED and battery. Flash sync cable one side to negative of battery and the other side to the LED then to the positive. LEDs generally are polarity sensitive only conducting in one direction. Bought the LED candle from the dollar store that comes with a coin battery. Bought the battery coin holder from auction but cheapest comes as a package of many.

10-4..... very clever.
Thank You

Les Sarile · Dec 3, 2020

CMoore said:
10-4..... very clever.
Thank You

The clever part was someone suggesting to try the sync port after I posted this question on the Pentax forum as babysitting the camera during these long autoexposures was a PIA!

Kodachromeguy · Dec 3, 2020

Les Sarile said:
Under controlled lighting conditions, results scanned with my Coolscan with no pre or post work show no color shifts at all.

After these I didn't conduct any more testing as you can't even tell the difference.

Thank you for posting this test. I'm impressed that the Ektar seems fine for seconds, minutes, hours. I occasionally use a little Yashica Electro 35CC, which will time exposures up to about 15 or 16 seconds. I should use Ektar 100 more often in it.

Les Sarile · Dec 4, 2020

Kodachromeguy said:
Thank you for posting this test. I'm impressed that the Ektar seems fine for seconds, minutes, hours. I occasionally use a little Yashica Electro 35CC, which will time exposures up to about 15 or 16 seconds. I should use Ektar 100 more often in it.

You're welcome.
Been meaning to try this out with slide film too. One to see if reciprocity failure is an issue and another is to see if the LX's long autoexposure is good enough to use on slides as oppposed to relying on color negatives ultrawide latitude.

Pentaxian Guidance: What's your favorite Pentax SLR body?

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