Pentax ME Super Long Exposure

[MFstooges]

Hola,
Does anybody know if Pentax ME Super can go on super long exposure on Aperture priority mode like the LX or Nikon F3?
If yes, what is the longest and how do people adjust for reciprocity failure?

 

[GRHazelton]

I own the Pentax ME Super, and the LX, and my recently acquired Nikon F3. The LX, since its meter sensor reads off the film during the exposure, can meter as long as needed until enough light has landed on the film for a proper exposure, or the battery runs down! The ME meters before exposure and is unable, as far as I know, to make really long, automatic exposures. You could, of course, set it to B or bulb, and go by guess and by gosh! I haven't used my F3 enough to be able to give an informed answer. Reciprocity failure?? Doh! I've seen LX exposures of HOURS! I think you're on your own. A website dealing with astronomical photography on film might have some intfo. I've shot LX on C-41 exposures of 15 or 20 minutes. By moonlight some odd effects, but it seems the latitude of C-41 takes care of things. Of course, YMMV....

 

[Les Sarile]

How long of an exposure would you consider as super long - many seconds, minutes or hours?

 

[MFstooges]

I own the Pentax ME Super, and the LX, and my recently acquired Nikon F3. The LX, since its meter sensor reads off the film during the exposure, can meter as long as needed until enough light has landed on the film for a proper exposure, or the battery runs down! The ME meters before exposure and is unable, as far as I know, to make really long, automatic exposures. You could, of course, set it to B or bulb, and go by guess and by gosh! I haven't used my F3 enough to be able to give an informed answer. Reciprocity failure?? Doh! I've seen LX exposures of HOURS! I think you're on your own. A website dealing with astronomical photography on film might have some intfo. I've shot LX on C-41 exposures of 15 or 20 minutes. By moonlight some odd effects, but it seems the latitude of C-41 takes care of things. Of course, YMMV....

Thank you. I guess I'm expecting too much from beginner camera

 

[Les Sarile]

Thank you. I guess I'm expecting too much from beginner camera

By all definitions, the Canon 1V is no beginner camera but it can only aperture priority autoexpose a scene for 30 seconds. In fact all Canon cameras with aperture priority are limited to 30 seconds. So it isn't a case of beginner or pro level.

 

[pbromaghin]

I had a Pentax ME Super for over 20 years until the meter died. It is not a beginner camera, it's just welcome to 1982. Not many meters of the time did what you want. Yes, it would be a lot more convenient, but using the bulb, I was able to get some very nice nighttime color shots of the Golden Gate Bridge and San Francisco from all along the Marin headlands. This triggered my journey into film as a serious hobby. It's not clear from your post if you know this, but reciprocity failure has nothing at all to do with the camera, it is a characteristic unique to each film, and a major part of learning nighttime photography. Few people can really get nighttime right with film, and I really admire their skill.

 

[removed account4]

I believe 4 seconds is the longest the camera stays open on its own. With a release and on bulb you can obviously keep it open as long as you wish . I never have bothered with reciprocity failure calculus just brute force.. have fun with the camera, I‘ve had mine for about 30 years and love it.

 

[RLangham]

Yeah, the LX is gonna be the anomaly here. The vast majority of aperture priority cameras with TTL metering do not meter off the film and even those that do are usually capped somewhere below five minutes. The Olympus OM-2, the first OTF camera and widely regarded as one of the greatest AE manual focus SLR's, is supposed to top off at two minutes, but sometimes goes a little beyond that. The Nikon FG, being an amateur model with the same shutter as some of the most basic Pentax M-series cameras, tops off at a mere one second. I don't know where the Pentax MG tops off, but I know it's not OTF so I imagine it's not long.

The LX is very unusual and probably eats batteries to provide this function. I'm not saying it can't be useful--I'd probably use it--but you probably spend a fortune in batteries, and I bet you can't skimp and buy alkali either.

 

[Les Sarile]

The Olympus OM-2 can aperture autoexpose for up to 19 minutes but with a lot of caveats. The OM-2N can go up to 3.5 minutes. You can read about this @ http://www.zuiko.com/web_5__20150924_032.htm

The LX is an anomaly when it comes to aperture priority autoexposure. I have two Pentax LXs and I have conducted controlled testing lasting several hours long and they are repeatable. When conducting these ultra long aperture priority autoexposures, battery replacements are not a concern. What is a concern is knowing when the exposure is done. There are no external indicators so you will have to look through the viewfinder ever so often to see when the shutter closes and the mirror comes down. For that I wired an LED+battery and hooked it up to the flash sync port. When the shutter opens to start the exposure, the LED lights up and turns off at the end of the exposure.

 

[RLangham]

The Olympus OM-2 can aperture autoexpose for up to 19 minutes but with a lot of caveats. The OM-2N can go up to 3.5 ?minutes.

19 minutes? That's interesting. Under what circumstances is the usual limit bypassed?

 

[Les Sarile]

19 minutes? That's interesting. Under what circumstances is the usual limit bypassed?

The link I posted above outlines all the details to achieve 19 minutes.

 

[RLangham]

The link I posted above outlines all the details to achieve 19 minutes.

Ok, so that makes sense. There's a range in which the meter is accurate and the camera tries to avoid dipping out of that. Hence 19 minutes at ASA 400 would be too low an LV to measure accurately, but 19 minutes at ASA 12 wouldn't.

 

[Ces1um]

Thank you. I guess I'm expecting too much from beginner camera

You could make your camera work but it takes a bit more skill. You'd have to shoot in manual/bulb. Start by downloading a pinhole camera metering app and simply enter the aperture you're using rather than going through the preprogrammed list of pinhole cameras. Those apps also take into account reciprocity failure based on film type. You would have to use bulb mode. Pinhole Assist is an expensive but also an excellent app for exactly this kind of thing (I believe it cost $35). The app even has a countdown timer built in to help with your exposure time.

 

[Les Sarile]

Those apps also take into account reciprocity failure based on film type.

Would you know up to what duration reciprocity failure is accounted for? Or do they just use the data sheet statement that past a certain time you'd have to try it yourself?

 

[Chan Tran]

Hola,
Does anybody know if Pentax ME Super can go on super long exposure on Aperture priority mode like the LX or Nikon F3?
If yes, what is the longest and how do people adjust for reciprocity failure?

I do not trust the meter when it goes super long. The light level is lower than what the meter is designed for.
I know there are many who loves doing so. The combination of reciprocal failure and metering out of range often resulted in good exposure (2 wrongs make it right) but besides for low light it's difficult to say if the exposure is correct. The dynamic range of typical low light scene is so great so you almost always have some part of the frame in good exposure, some over, some under.

 

[Ces1um]

Would you know up to what duration reciprocity failure is accounted for? Or do they just use the data sheet statement that past a certain time you'd have to try it yourself?

I can check tonight but I've done two hour long pinhole photo before using the app. Not sure how far the normal data sheets go.

 

[Les Sarile]

I can check tonight but I've done two hour long pinhole photo before using the app. Not sure how far the normal data sheets go.

Kodak Ektar 100 spec (https://imaging.kodakalaris.com/sites/prod/files/files/products/e4046_ektar_100.pdf) states as follows.

Adjustments for Long and Short Exposures
No filter correction or exposure compensation is required for exposures from 1⁄10,000 second to 1 second. For critical applications with longer exposure times, make tests under your conditions.​

So I wonder if the ap will give a proper exposure say at 10 minutes, hour, etc.

 

[Ces1um]

I can check tonight but I've done two hour long pinhole photo before using the app. Not sure how far the normal data sheets go.

Apologies- slipped my mind to double check the maximum length of exposure in the app last night.

 

[Ces1um]

Kodak Ektar 100 spec (https://imaging.kodakalaris.com/sites/prod/files/files/products/e4046_ektar_100.pdf) states as follows.

Adjustments for Long and Short Exposures
No filter correction or exposure compensation is required for exposures from 1⁄10,000 second to 1 second. For critical applications with longer exposure times, make tests under your conditions.​

So I wonder if the ap will give a proper exposure say at 10 minutes, hour, etc.

I know it provided for reciprocity failure of specific film types. I never used Ektar for long exposure though in my pinhole camera as I was shooting 4x5 sheet film and could only develop black and white at home. I never had any issues with long exposures. It was the short exposures (around one second) that I ran into issues with when shooting pinhole.

Here's an excerpt from the product description for the app:

* Built in camera computes exposure;

* allows enter EV reading for any lightmeter

* Use built-in exposition timer and bubble level for optimal shot;

* The light meter has a spot-meter feature and allows for incident metering;

* Enter your camera aperture from the predefined list (170+ pinhole cameras) or compute it;

* Let the assistant automatically compensate for reciprocity of film (correction for long exposures, 60+ different curves included), or use your own curves.

* Save, restore and presets (combos) : aperture, predefined cameras, ASA and reciprocity settings

• 30+ builtin filters (red, ND…), add your own, mafast acess your favorites ,

* Log shot information : preview, exposure, metering, location, interactive map , date and a shot. Export as picture, CSV or JSON file.


You can create film and set reciprocity curve from within Pinhole Assist. Crete new ones, or tweak existing ones.


Pinhole assist is the name of the app and I see it's come down dramatically in price.

 

[Ces1um]

Just checked the app- it lets you manually enter any aperture. Kodak Ektar is one of the films available. The app tells you the exposure time and also a "compensated" exposure time which takes into account the film reciprocity. I'd say it would work for you. It's running on my old ipod so I know for sure it's an apple app. It could also be available for android but you'd have to check that.

 

[Les Sarile]

When I tested all my aperture priority capable cameras for ultra long autoexposure, I found out that most all of them do not provide repeatable results when in the many seconds range and even less in the low minutes range. I assume that this ap uses the phone to initially meter the scene so I would guess that given a particularly dark scene that it would not meter correctly to base it's longer time exposures on. For instance, this scene that took many tens of minutes to autoexpose on the LX would be too dark to meter accurately on the phone.

This is what the phone captured. You can see the LED right middle indicating the LX's shutter is still open . . .

This is what the LX captured on Kodak Ektar 100 . . .

But I suppose I can only know if it would work if I do test it . . .

 

[RLangham]

I think the functionality that OP and others are looking for is pretty difficult to achieve. Metering and manually running a time exposure is probably best, as others have noted, but I do wonder how much of your photography is actually done under these conditions?

The only time exposures I've really done are in the two-to-three second range, handheld, indoors, for artistic effect, and one-hour startrail photographs done on B/W film, for which metering is irrelevant. Most available light photography is done with speed much faster than ten seconds. Now, this is a very interesting discussion, but I feel the need to point out that a lot of this will remain theoretical in day-to-day photography.

 

[Les Sarile]

I think the functionality that OP and others are looking for is pretty difficult to achieve. Metering and manually running a time exposure is probably best, as others have noted, but I do wonder how much of your photography is actually done under these conditions?

Of course the conditions vary greatly but I wanted to stay on topic. However, the OP never did answer my question about what is considered "super long exposure" . . .

When I first started taking "serious" photographs, I acquired what was then the top of the line Canon EOS3. I assumed - without reading the manual, that I put it in aperture priority and the camera will expose as long as it takes. Unfortunately I will find out later that all Canon cameras with AV mode maxes out at 30 seconds.

This is the shot I wanted to take on Fuji Velvia 100. Ended - obviously underexposed, at 30 seconds.

I figured that if the best most current camera could not do it then there is no camera capable of it so I would just have to do like everyone else and use bulb and guess mode. I got into manual cameras later and started acquiring and testing them to see if there was a camera that can do this and that's when I came across the LX.

I resitied that same scene above but this time using the LX with Kodak Ektar 100. Was tens of minutes long.

This one with a better angle - LX + Kodak Ektar 100.

Sometimes I just have to take a phone cam shot of the scene because the LX makes these ultra long exposure shots look so normal except for when there is ultra smooth water such as this one on Kodak Portra 800 was about 15 minutes.

The phone cam shot of the scene.

Smoothing the water using the LX with Fuji 100 just as it was starting to get dark . . .

 

[dourbalistar]

The LX is an anomaly when it comes to aperture priority autoexposure. I have two Pentax LXs and I have conducted controlled testing lasting several hours long and they are repeatable. When conducting these ultra long aperture priority autoexposures, battery replacements are not a concern. What is a concern is knowing when the exposure is done. There are no external indicators so you will have to look through the viewfinder ever so often to see when the shutter closes and the mirror comes down. For that I wired an LED+battery and hooked it up to the flash sync port. When the shutter opens to start the exposure, the LED lights up and turns off at the end of the exposure.

Really interesting solution with the LED light! Does the LED light, since it's on during a long exposure, affect or "pollute" the exposure at all? I wonder if you could reverse it, so that the light is off during an exposure, and only comes on when the exposure is finished instead...

 

[Ces1um]

When I tested all my aperture priority capable cameras for ultra long autoexposure, I found out that most all of them do not provide repeatable results when in the many seconds range and even less in the low minutes range. I assume that this ap uses the phone to initially meter the scene so I would guess that given a particularly dark scene that it would not meter correctly to base it's longer time exposures on.
But I suppose I can only know if it would work if I do test it . . .

The phone app definitely meters the scene at the start- that's how you enter your manual settings into the camera. Like I've said, I've never tried it with ektar but I've gotten good results with a two hour long pinhole exposure that was in very dark conditions with decent exposure. The app has got a spot meter mode so you could either meter on the highlights, grey card or shadows depending on which method you prefer. I suppose if you are disinclined to trust the app you could run the calculations yourself. I'm hard pressed to believe though that anyone using a standard lens (ie not pinhole) would ever need to do a 2 hour long exposure (except those photographing nebula, star trails and deep space objects).

My suggestion would be to just try it and see like you have suggested.
Nice photos by the way. Particularly like the photo of the boat.