Pentax 67ii Winder Issue

Mike Chalmers · Apr 3, 2019

Hi folks,

I was using my Pentax 67ii yesterday and about 15 films in, the winder locked up (in its normal resting position) as I was loading film.

This has happened before , a long time ago and never again so I did what worked previously (that I had read online): gave the top of the winder a few taps, then try to wind it a few times. Eventually, with enough pressure it wound on. And the film loaded fine, with the shot counter working properly.

I'm not sure if it was this same roll or the next one but halfway through (about frame 6), winding to the next shot felt "crunchy" and the shot counter stayed on 6. I kept winding and trying to fire and eventually the counter went up one (to 7) and the winder wound smoothly and let me fire off another shot before it did the same crunchy winding until the end of the roll.

When the roll was out it seemed to be winding smoothly so I loaded another film and I got through about 5 shots before the winding issue reoccurred. Crunchy winding again until end of roll.

So that's where I'm at - no film in it and still winding badly (crunchy) and was hoping someone here might have some advice.

I don't really have money to send it in to get fixed , so I'm willing to to try and take a look for myself as I've been quite handy at fixing things in the past but have no experience with the Pentax maintenance, so would appreciate any input.

EDIT: I tried 3 sets of packaged batteries - so don't believe the batteries are connected to the issue.

Thanks!

trendland · Apr 3, 2019

Mike Chalmers said:
Hi folks,

I was using my Pentax 67ii yesterday and about 15 films in, the winder locked up (in its normal resting position) as I was loading film.

This has happened before , a long time ago and never again so I did what worked previously (that I had read online): gave the top of the winder a few taps, then try to wind it a few times. Eventually, with enough pressure it wound on. And the film loaded fine, with the shot counter working properly.

I'm not sure if it was this same roll or the next one but halfway through (about frame 6), winding to the next shot felt "crunchy" and the shot counter stayed on 6. I kept winding and trying to fire and eventually the counter went up one (to 7) and the winder wound smoothly and let me fire off another shot before it did the same crunchy winding until the end of the roll.

When the roll was out it seemed to be winding smoothly so I loaded another film and I got through about 5 shots before the winding issue reoccurred. Crunchy winding again until end of roll.

So that's where I'm at - no film in it and still winding badly (crunchy) and was hoping someone here might have some advice.

I don't really have money to send it in to get fixed , so I'm willing to to try and take a look for myself as I've been quite handy at fixing things in the past but have no experience with the Pentax maintenance, so would appreciate any input.

EDIT: I tried 3 sets of packaged batteries - so don't believe the batteries are connected to the issue.

Thanks!

Mike I remember the same - it happened years ago - I was shocked about!
I had to open the camera and I waste the film and was frightent about Pentax is broken now!
But it happend never again!
Is your camera still fine again?

with regards

PS : A complete lost of a film is not fine! A broken P67II is a catastrophy!

Mike Chalmers · Apr 3, 2019

trendland said:
Is your camera still fine again?

No, it's still not working. And yes, I'd be happy to lose a roll of film to fix it. I lost at least a couple already.

trendland · Apr 3, 2019

Mike Chalmers said:
Hi folks,

I was using my Pentax 67ii yesterday and about 15 films in, the winder locked up (in its normal resting position) as I was loading film.

This has happened before , a long time ago and never again so I did what worked previously (that I had read online): gave the top of the winder a few taps, then try to wind it a few times. Eventually, with enough pressure it wound on. And the film loaded fine, with the shot counter working properly.

I'm not sure if it was this same roll or the next one but halfway through (about frame 6), winding to the next shot felt "crunchy" and the shot counter stayed on 6. I kept winding and trying to fire and eventually the counter went up one (to 7) and the winder wound smoothly and let me fire off another shot before it did the same crunchy winding until the end of the roll.

When the roll was out it seemed to be winding smoothly so I loaded another film and I got through about 5 shots before the winding issue reoccurred. Crunchy winding again until end of roll.

So that's where I'm at - no film in it and still winding badly (crunchy) and was hoping someone here might have some advice.

I don't really have money to send it in to get fixed , so I'm willing to to try and take a look for myself as I've been quite handy at fixing things in the past but have no experience with the Pentax maintenance, so would appreciate any input.

EDIT: I tried 3 sets of packaged batteries - so don't believe the batteries are connected to the issue.

Thanks!

Aha I see your problem is an other one! That looks like a problem Mike!
It should be the mechanic of the film transport! If it would be no Pentax this problem COULD be solved with "WD 40" or with a couple of good oil (a real option can be silicone oil) there are a lot of fine materials out there (last week an assistent have shownn me bis special oil in basis of micro elements) but P67isn't a machine - forget it!
That sounds like a ball-bearing damage in comparison with the lever mechanism!
So how can this happen - your film advance isn't running with 6700 Motor revolutions/min!
Remember the force in this parts - there is a weak point to 98s P67.....!
I can't say why it is not with old series P67/P6x7?????

with regards

PS : A definitive case for service inspection and replacing parts!

trendland · Apr 3, 2019

Ähm Mike if you would have eine service it would be fine to report here - but from my point that I mentioned should indeed be the failure!
with regards

PS : Good luck!

Mike Chalmers · Apr 3, 2019

I've found the service manual for it, which I'm going to have a serious look at but on first glance is quite intimidating!

Another point to note: When it's the lever is wound, where it usually holds in place, it now just jumps back to its normal resting position when released, even when you advance only part of the way.

I actually just managed to get it to smoothly advance as normal and then was able to fire the shutter (with no film in) but after doing so it went back to the issue.

@trendland: thanks for your input, I know it could do with a service & repair, I just want to check if anyone here has experience of the issue or self-maintenance as I'm low on money and have fixed cameras and laptops and things in the past.

Poisson Du Jour · Apr 3, 2019

The intermittency reminds me of others reporting this. I suspect a fatigued, slipped (likely) winding pawl mechanism. The lever should hold it's position at any stage during the winding position and never spring back until the winding cycle is complete.
This winding glitch is also common the earlier Pentax 6x7 (this is the oldest camera) and a little less common in the later Pentax 67 cameras which had small engineering improvements.

DREW WILEY · Apr 3, 2019

Strange. I've never had a problem with my older non-ii MLU bodies, which have been in use nearly forty years now under tough conditions. No maintenance issues at all except needing to replace light gasket strips on one body. Incidentally, never use WD40 for anything of value. It's a junk product with side effects. Cameras deserve better.

mshchem · Apr 3, 2019

Double check everything, pressure plate could be reversed. If there's really a grinding noise either the film is being pinched (pressure plate set for 220) or there's a real problem. That's a beautiful camera, best left to a professional IMHO
Mike

Poisson Du Jour · Apr 3, 2019

I don't think Eric at Pentaxs.com services the 67ii camera, but it would be worth making contact with him to perhaps gain insight into the winding problem.
I note the OP is in London, while Eric is in the US, so there could be significant freight costs and time issues going that way.

John Koehrer · Apr 3, 2019

A bit difficult to decipher trendland's note. I certainly wouldn't get any lubricant near the camera if you don't know what's
happening in there. Crunching noises are usually worn or loose parts. If you do get in there to poke around keep in mind
that if it's not reassembled correctly some technicians will charge extra for the service.

Poisson Du Jour · Apr 3, 2019

trendland said:
I can't say why it is not with old series P67/P6x7?????

Both generations of the camera have had fatigued/broken winding mechanism issues requiring repair, particular in those camera that have been subject to persistently heavy professional use, where aggressive winding was the norm, not the exception. The later Pentax 67 (1989-1990) had additional improvement of the winding and cocking mechanism, but it is still something that is widely considered a weak spot, ripe for failure at some time, for both of the Pentax 6x7 /67 cameras.

trendland · Apr 4, 2019

Poisson Du Jour said:
Both generations of the camera have had fatigued/broken winding mechanism issues requiring repair, particular in those camera that have been subject to persistently heavy professional use, where aggressive winding was the norm, not the exception. The later Pentax 67 (1989-1990) had additional improvement of the winding and cocking mechanism, but it is still something that is widely considered a weak spot, ripe for failure at some time, for both of the Pentax 6x7 /67 cameras.

Aha - understand : Well I asked about to some wich have in use the old version Pentax !
All stated they never had problems with! So they just had luck to own a amatheuric used one
(or a professional used P6x7 wich had seen some service)

with regards

PS : A friend show me his P67 (real used) it looked like damaged - then he let me handle it!
Well the winding was better than mine P67II out of 2005!

trendland · Apr 4, 2019

DREW WILEY said:
Strange. I've never had a problem with my older non-ii MLU bodies, which have been in use nearly forty years now under tough conditions. No maintenance issues at all except needing to replace light gasket strips on one body. Incidentally, never use WD40 for anything of value. It's a junk product with side effects. Cameras deserve better.

That is the issue I was reported from all I asked about! The old Pentax versions made problems after a massive crash - then it was heavily damaged and broken - of course!
But from normal (non proffesional use) it was extreme reliable! But if you look to the extreme force
wich is working to the film transport mechanism (the advantage of P67 = quick transport) there every P67 could come into trouble after 6000 - 8000 films! " Could" is no must - perhaps it is like with cars : "Your car is defect ? How did you drive your car???"
But I also just know issues with New P67 II mine is working OK but not very fine!
And I can't say how much films I shot ? 300? 500? it isn't soo much!

wich regards

trendland · Apr 4, 2019

John Koehrer said:
A bit difficult to decipher trendland's note. I certainly wouldn't get any lubricant near the camera if you don't know what's
happening in there. Crunching noises are usually worn or loose parts. If you do get in there to poke around keep in mind
that if it's not reassembled correctly some technicians will charge extra for the service.

If you handle film transport with your P67 without film it is working so soft as butter?
Like you operate cameras with 35mm film - right? That is the same to me!
If a film is inside there is a difference of course! 120 film is no 35mm canister!
So my P67II (brand new 2005 from the very last series) also made cruching noises if film is inside!
There is no difference between 120/220 films - it is the opposite 220films are working a bit more easy (not so much backing paper wich is between)

Is it the same with yours? My P67II made it from the first day! But I never owned a P67 before so
I thought : " That should be the normal case (there is a roll 120 film inside and that isn't soo easy)
But sometimes I have doubts about reliability - so 3000 films my P67II will not transport for sure!
Because - before film 2998 I will get same problem the OP reported...... - perhaps!

with regards

PS : I have not 2000 120 films in my freezer! That can be my luck!
PPS : I own a Voigtländer 6x9 out of the year 1928! This camera have seen more than 2 950 films
(if I remember the archive numbers of films right) and it's film transport can't become defect -
at any time! But it isn't real quick!

trendland · Apr 4, 2019

Mike Chalmers said:
I've found the service manual for it, which I'm going to have a serious look at but on first glance is quite intimidating!

Another point to note: When it's the lever is wound, where it usually holds in place, it now just jumps back to its normal resting position when released, even when you advance only part of the way.

I actually just managed to get it to smoothly advance as normal and then was able to fire the shutter (with no film in) but after doing so it went back to the issue.

@trendland: thanks for your input, I know it could do with a service & repair, I just want to check if anyone here has experience of the issue or self-maintenance as I'm low on money and have fixed cameras and laptops and things in the past.

To every photographer the day will come to need a service at once! If your camera would be a cheapest (P67 isn't real cheap) - so about < 50 - 80 £ (any other camera) I would indeed open it
(out of curiosity) - but that can only be the case if it is clear :" The camera is TO WASTE"
So (with other things) before wasting - look inside!
I could guess there indeed is a need of special oil! But pls. don't try it yourself - give it an expert!
Because :

......this is a todays normal price! Of course there are many out there much cheaper
(USD 700,- -- 1200,-) but if you want to have a nearly New one (not used and max. mind)
You have to pay for - can't say if this here is unused it looks like- but it is just an example!

with regards

PS : Guess your P67II is also "mint" - but defect - so it was mint conditioned before?
PPS : Mine is nearly New - what is it ?
Yes it is from 2005 but there is not the smalest speck of dust or more....! But it is making crunching noises.... also!

Mike Chalmers · Apr 4, 2019

Poisson Du Jour said:
The intermittency reminds me of others reporting this. I suspect a fatigued, slipped (likely) winding pawl mechanism. The lever should hold it's position at any stage during the winding position and never spring back until the winding cycle is complete.

Yes, it won't hold its position at any stage now. and an issue with the pawl mechanism seems accurate to what the issue is / feels and sounds like.

DREW WILEY said:
Incidentally, never use WD40 for anything of value. It's a junk product with side effects. Cameras deserve better.

Yeah, no I would never.

mshchem said:
Double check everything, pressure plate could be reversed. If there's really a grinding noise either the film is being pinched (pressure plate set for 220) or there's a real problem. That's a beautiful camera, best left to a professional IMHO

The sound (and feel) is there without film, so I guess the problem is more with the mechanism.

Poisson Du Jour said:
I don't think Eric at Pentaxs.com services the 67ii camera, but it would be worth making contact with him to perhaps gain insight into the winding problem.
I note the OP is in London, while Eric is in the US, so there could be significant freight costs and time issues going that way.

I have contacted a potential repair centre here, hoping for a quote to give me a rough idea, but they want to see it first (UK but not London)

John Koehrer said:
Crunching noises are usually worn or loose parts. If you do get in there to poke around keep in mind
that if it's not reassembled correctly some technicians will charge extra for the service.

That's why I thought I'd hold off and ask for advice here, just in case someone had some solid advice or experience, but I'm now considering sending for repair and working something out financially.

John Koehrer said:
A bit difficult to decipher trendland's note.

Yes - apologies trendland, I can't follow your input I'm afraid.

Thanks to everyone. Anyone got a ballpark figure for repair costs?

M

trendland · Apr 4, 2019

Mike Chalmers said:
Yes, it won't hold its position at any stage now. and an issue with the pawl mechanism seems accurate to what the issue is / feels and sounds like.

Yeah, no I would never.

The sound (and feel) is there without film, so I guess the problem is more with the mechanism.

I have contacted a potential repair centre here, hoping for a quote to give me a rough idea, but they want to see it first (UK but not London)

That's why I thought I'd hold off and ask for advice here, just in case someone had some solid advice or experience, but I'm now considering sending for repair and working something out financially.

Yes - apologies trendland, I can't follow your input I'm afraid.

Thanks to everyone. Anyone got a ballpark figure for repair costs?

M

Hi again......ballpark figure? Well that isn't easy to say - to the parts wich have to be replaced -
it will not cost the world! I remember to pay for "SKF" ball bearings years ago ~ 22 bucks!
And the parts the mechanic of the P67 will need are much smaler!
But I guess it is higher priced (special camera parts originally manufactured Form Pentax)!
Let's say the parts you need are "just" at £ 60,-.....but to replace it that can cost more than one full hour for maintanance! I would guess you should calculate arround £200,- for all!

with regards

PS : What I stated - in other words : If a P67 would not cost so much and you would decide :
" I try to repair it myself - if it will not work I can waste the camera - no problem!"
THEN I would open the camera (out of curiosity) - but it isn't possible caused from the price of a P67II!
Same is in regard of WD40, some special oil etc!

PPS : I got some cheap Agfa Isolette from EBay - I can't give it to service! THERE I would use indeed some oil to make film transport more smooth! But the transport mechanism is much more simple and not the problem to the Agfas! (I disembled the lenses - it was pretty easy!)
But in case of trouble : These Agfas cost me (in £) just ~ 15,- up to 25,- each!

Mike Chalmers · Apr 4, 2019

trendland said:
Hi again......ballpark figure? Well that isn't easy to say - to the parts wich have to be replaced -
PS : What I stated - in other words : If a P67 would not cost so much and you would decide :
" I try to repair it myself - if it will not work I can waste the camera - no problem!"
THEN I would open the camera (out of curiosity) - but it isn't possible caused from the price of a P67II!

Ah yes, I know what you're saying and I wouldn't want to take any risks, but sometimes asking first leads to finding out some tricks. I also have a feeling it's only going to get harder to get professional film camera repairs and would love to learn some skills myself. Anyway, I've not opened it up or anything and am speaking to a repair service - but it might be a while before I can afford it (at least I have a 645N backup camera).

trendland · Apr 4, 2019

Understand - your Pentax isn't to clear from some "tricks" that is a pity for you but to the other hand : " You have done nothing wrong - you have handled the cameral from normal operating"
(thats also fine) - it is just a defect....!

good luck - and pls. let us know what came up with!

Mike Chalmers · Apr 4, 2019

I have discovered a user on a Russian forum who had an issue with the winding mechanism, who posted some advice with steps and images. Found it via this post with further info.

I'm not confident I'll be able to diagnose / fix if I do get in there, so I'm not going through with it yet (especially as I'm struggling with the first stage of winder cap removal) although I would love to have a look inside just in case I can see something obvious.

PS. I was told not to try fixing my MacBook Pro (burnt out component) but Apple Store's charges were crazy (£hundreds) and I managed to fix myself for £28 plus a couple of new tools [1 year later typing on it now]. This isn't the same thing, but I enjoy knowing how to fix the tools I use.

John Koehrer · Apr 4, 2019

here's a google answer
https://www.google.com/search?q=pen...ome..69i57.16063j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
Doesn't include shipping anywhere $$$$$$$$

Mike Chalmers · Apr 4, 2019

John Koehrer said:
here's a google answer
https://www.google.com/search?q=pen...ome..69i57.16063j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
Doesn't include shipping anywhere $$$$$$$$

Yeah the only page with actual prices no longer repair 67ii, although the rest of the prices look reasonable.

The repair service I've been in touch with wanted to see camera prior to quote, but I'v asked for a ballpark / range as I don't want to send it out then find out it's way more than I can do. I remember getting a Hassy 501C fixed several years back and I was stunned by the cost.

Mike Chalmers · Apr 4, 2019

I would love for a video like this to exist for the P67ii..

mshchem · Apr 4, 2019

There is a shop in Rock Island Illinois USA. United camera repair, they fix everything. I had work done on a Fujica rangefinder, old 35mm with a frozen shutter, bad meter circuit ,rewind crank was missing a spring. These guys made it like new for 125 USD. I've had them work on everything but digital (which they do as well) I would ask them. I know that shipping would be involved. These guys might be able to help you get on the right track.

Www.united-camera.com

There's more than one united camera make sure you get the one in Rock Island Illinois

Pentax 67ii Winder Issue

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