Pentax 67 owners, my "ttl chain" does not look like a chain...help please

moodlover · Jan 14, 2016

I bought this off eBay in great condition and I took off the TTL finder to inspect the chain of the Pentax 67 (416xxxx serial). It doesn't have any links that look like a chain, instead it just looks like a thin wire:

Please tell me if this is abnormal and if I should return this to the seller. The item described this as fully functional and near mint condition so I am not sure why this chain is not a chain...here is what a google images search shows the Pentax 6x7s one (which isn't the 67 but I assume the chain should be the same):

Thoughts?!

moodlover · Jan 14, 2016

Update: here is a video of me testing out the lever inside the lens mount to see if the chain moves:

[video]https://vid.me/e/MZVP[/video]

Functionally seems okay but visually it doesn't look like a chain with links, just a skinny wire...any ideas?

Edit: for clarification, I thought it's supposed to look like a link chain:

But it just looks like this:

Poisson Du Jour · Jan 14, 2016

It makes me squirm to see a repair like that. It may or may not be reliable — have you run tests for exposure and coupling with the meter?*

Pentax never made nor recommended a solid or braided wire as replacement for the original meter coupling chain and replacing the original chain with a solid wire actually can lead to jamming of the mechanism. A replacement is always a linked chain, as per the original (the Pentax 67 bodies had a better and stronger chain fitted). I would also be asking the seller for evidence that the lens flange has been re-calibrated due to the loss of tolerance during disassembly and reassembly. It doesn't look like a professional service bench repair to me so... perhaps communicate with the seller and ask who (if not himself!) carried out the repair and furnish evidence that the flange has been recalibrated.

Like the very thin nylon cord in the Olympus OM4, these chains can and do break for a good reason!

* When removing the prism and before re-mounting it: remove the lens. Re-mount the prism and then re-mount the lens.
This resets the position of the meter coupling pin in the prism to the chain on the camera body. If this procedure is not followed, stress is imparted on the chain and eventually it will break. I'm wondering if the original owner couldn't be bothered taking notice of this procedure and decided on a solid wire replacement. It will take more stress, but it will still break, and potentially break other parts of the mechanism as a flow-on.

AgX · Jan 14, 2016

The original version indeed uses a chain. As the chain is spring loaded at one end and actuaded by a lever at the other end it is only to to move a slider for and back and no sprocket wheels are involved, it basically is only a flexible means to transfer a movement around a bent path.

A thick wire could induce some lag at bents. With a thin steel wire as yours I do not see such problems. In theory a chain would hold on longer, but the fact that it had been substituted indicates the contrary.

moodlover · Jan 14, 2016

Poisson Du Jour said:
It makes me squirm to see a repair like that. It may or may not be reliable — have you run tests for exposure and coupling with the meter?*

Pentax never made nor recommended a solid or braided wire as replacement for the original meter coupling chain and replacing the original chain with a solid wire actually can lead to jamming of the mechanism. A replacement is always a linked chain, as per the original (the Pentax 67 bodies had a better and stronger chain fitted). I would also be asking the seller for evidence that the lens flange has been re-calibrated due to the loss of tolerance during disassembly and reassembly. It doesn't look like a professional service bench repair to me so... perhaps communicate with the seller and ask who (if not himself!) carried out the repair and furnish evidence that the flange has been recalibrated.

Like the very thin nylon cord in the Olympus OM4, these chains can and do break for a good reason!

* When removing the prism and before re-mounting it: remove the lens. Re-mount the prism and then re-mount the lens.
This resets the position of the meter coupling pin in the prism to the chain on the camera body. If this procedure is not followed, stress is imparted on the chain and eventually it will break. I'm wondering if the original owner couldn't be bothered taking notice of this procedure and decided on a solid wire replacement. It will take more stress, but it will still break, and potentially break other parts of the mechanism as a flow-on.

Aw man now I'm definitely worried, I had a hunch that this camera was broken and repaired since only the body was for sale. I can't even afford to send this back to Japan right now. I have not yet run tests for exposure since my 105mm lens is still in transit, though when I flick the TTL finder power switch to "on" nothing lights up inside to indicate any form of life...do you know if a lens is required for the meter to activate? The battery check light turns on so I assume battery is not the issue. These Japanese sellers are difficult to communicate with since their English is not so well, but I will ask him for evidence...without expecting much help (what evidence could he provide anyway?). If the flange has not been recalibrated well, how would I know? I am wondering how to test this properly...am I supposed to shoot some test rolls at different apertures to see if the meter is accurate or something? And if the images come out looking good? Thanks for your advice, you guys are all I can rely on right now.

AgX said:
The original version indeed uses a chain. As the chain is spring loaded at one end and actuaded by a lever at the other end it is only to to move a slider for and back and no sprocket wheels are involved, it basically is only a flexible means to transfer a movement around a bent path.

A thick wire could induce some lag at bents. With a thin steel wire as yours I do not see such problems. In theory a chain would hold on longer, but the fact that it had been substituted indicates the contrary.

Yes I hope you are right, but the fact that someone tampered with this really makes me nervous. I bought this from a camera store on eBay and was hoping I wouldn't have to deal with issues like this...ugh!

Poisson Du Jour · Jan 14, 2016

From my point of view, the repair was done like this because, probably, the meter coupling chain broke on several occasions, likely due to a lack of observation of the noted procedure of removal of the prism etc. He/she wanted to "put a stop to the nonsense", to coin a phrase. If that (admittedly idiosyncratic) procedure is done incorrectly often enough, the chain will break, period.

Without a lens mounted, the meter has nothing to couple it. If, however, a lens is mounted and the meter is turned on and you see no response, then a more detailed investigation would be needed.

Flange calibration is not critical, but it is an additional step in the post-assembly. Follow this link to see the steps involved:
http://www.salzgeber.at/articles/6x7chainRepair.html

As a rule, a personal one at that, I totally avoid dealing with Japanese sellers with a poor grasp of English. It's not that I have an inherent trust of Japanese folk, it makes me very uncomfortable trying to make sense of mangled English and to establish clear facts. The best option is to skip over the offenders until you land on one that is obviously bi-lingual (and a lot of Japanese are).

The re-calibration process is technical. This snip is from page 92 of the Pentax 6x7 Repair Manual:

Chrismat · Jan 14, 2016

Email Eric Hendrikson at http://www.pentaxs.com, he's a Pentax tech who works on this camera and 35mm Pentaxes. He may be able to put in a proper chain. That is of course, if you decide to keep the camera and have it worked on.

Sorry you've had this experience. I love my Pentax 6X7 and its great lenses.

moodlover · Jan 15, 2016

Are you guys implying that I should get the chain replaced if I decide to keep this camera? It seems no one has faith in this repair job and that is truly unsettling...

Poisson Du Jour · Jan 15, 2016

moodlover said:
Are you guys implying that I should get the chain replaced if I decide to keep this camera? It seems no one has faith in this repair job and that is truly unsettling...

Not necessarily as unsettling as much as where caution needs to be shown.

The situation you are in is a bit tricky. If the seller allows it, you can return the camera to him on the basis that you were not aware that the meter coupling chain has been repaired in a non-standard manner that is to say, with a linked chain. I have not seen any evidence that a solid or braided wire exchange works as well as or better than a chain, hence my caution.

Or
You can wait until your 105mm lens arrives, attach that to the camera, ascertain if the meter is coupling correctly, and shoot a roll off and examine the results.

Obviously if something is wrong with the second option, you are probably too far from the gate to run back in and send the camera back.

If it was mine, my option would be to wait for the lens and run a roll through to test exposure at all apertures of your lens. If nothing is amiss, keep it (remembering that repair will leave you without a camera for a while and most photographers absolutely hate being parted from their darlings their cameras, I mean!!). A repair would mean cannibalising a chain from another 6x7 / 67 body, so you are not necessarily getting a brand new chain by repair, but one which has seen possibly decades of use and/or stress.

SMBooth · Jan 15, 2016

Having repair one of these i suggest if it works then its better than the chain links. It obvious not a solid wire but some sort of braid that flex's. The reason the chain breaks when you put the prism on without removing the lens is the metering pin jams into the chain, you wont damage the meter by having the braided cord in fact there is a taper in the metering link which will allow the pin to push up and let the black plastic bit slip under to its correct position if the chain did get jammed.. A repair job that different to the original doesn't mean its a bad job, maybe the guy knew what he was doing and the seller has no idea what should be in there as OME.

Chrismat · Jan 15, 2016

The repair to your camera may or may not be as good as the original chain, so I think some advice from an experienced tech like Eric Hendrickson would be warranted. I would e-mail him some the photos you posted and ask if he's ever heard of this type of repair.

I'm planning to give my Pentax 6X7 a tune up sometime this year (although it seems to be fine) and Eric will be the tech I will send it to.

John Koehrer · Jan 15, 2016

Chrismat said:
The repair to your camera may or may not be as good as the original chain, so I think some advice from an experienced tech like Eric Hendrickson would be warranted. I would e-mail him some the photos you posted and ask if he's ever heard of this type of repair.

I'm planning to give my Pentax 6X7 a tune up sometime this year (although it seems to be fine) and Eric will be the tech I will send it to.

It could also be better. Several camera brands have used wire, thread or chain to connect things in their cameras.

If you're suspect of the camera send it back as "not as described" and be done with it.
It would be nice if there was a copy of the repair manual for this generation camera. It could be
a standard part for a later camera.

ColColt · Jan 15, 2016

I wouldn't fool with it personally. I'd send it back. do so within the time frame he may have allotted-usually 14 days. I bought a pristine F2A last year and looked perfect outside. The shutter curtain was fouled up and because I waited longer than his 14 day turnaround, he wouldn't accept it back and no refund. I'll remember him.

Poisson Du Jour · Jan 15, 2016

John Koehrer said:
It could also be better. Several camera brands have used wire, thread or chain to connect things in their cameras.

If you're suspect of the camera send it back as "not as described" and be done with it.
It would be nice if there was a copy of the repair manual for this generation camera. It could be
a standard part for a later camera.

There is a repair manual, and it covers both the early 6x7 bodies with progressive amendments to the 67 with its later improvements (as an adendum).
It is about 123 pages+ long in quite intricate, albeit old-fashioned detailed graphics with references to parts that are long extinct, save for cannibalising them from another body. Scout the Pentax forums site as that is where I got my manual (in two parts).

aoresteen · Jan 15, 2016

Chrismat said:
Email Eric Hendrikson at http://www.pentaxs.com, he's a Pentax tech who works on this camera and 35mm Pentaxes. He may be able to put in a proper chain. That is of course, if you decide to keep the camera and have it worked on.

Sorry you've had this experience. I love my Pentax 6X7 and its great lenses.

Eric has my Pentax 6x7 MLU body right now and is overhauling it. It was in far worse shape than yours is. He is the person to go to for Pentax repairs. Have him service it and you will be able to enjoy it for years to come.

www.pentaxs.com

moodlover · Jan 15, 2016

What would it cost me for Eric to overhaul my camera? Not that I think it needs it but just to make sure everything is in top notch shape? I really don't want to dish out another few hundred bucks right now...I can't imagine repairs for this old thing to be easy on the wallet...

Anyways here is what the seller responded (kind of ridiculous, I dont really understand):

[h=3]Commodity is was good to safely arrived.

It is a matter of the chain, but you can see it even if I check with the manufacturer, but it has become to those likely to cut much.

Because although this product did not even stomach off was likely to state cut, we have changed to those of nylon so that it can be used longer difficult to cut in the professional repairer's.

You can see if you can with a lens, but I also work no problem.

Thank you check.[/h]

Poisson Du Jour · Jan 15, 2016

moodlover said:
What would it cost me for Eric to overhaul my camera? Not that I think it needs it but just to make sure everything is in top notch shape? I really don't want to dish out another few hundred bucks right now...I can't imagine repairs for this old thing to be easy on the wallet...

Anyways here is what the seller responded (kind of ridiculous, I dont really understand):

Commodity is was good to safely arrived.

It is a matter of the chain, but you can see it even if I check with the manufacturer, but it has become to those likely to cut much.

Because although this product did not even stomach off was likely to state cut, we have changed to those of nylon so that it can be used longer difficult to cut in the professional repairer's.

You can see if you can with a lens, but I also work no problem.

Thank you check.

Ugh! Another Japanese seller hoping to make a quick Yen based on fractured english and a few likely sub-standard pictures. Reading that, he has well and truly failed the pub sniff test. Frankly, I would have given him a wide detour. The next question is: what else has he fiddled with on the camera?

What exactly has he put in there? Is it nylon or steel cord?

moodlover · Jan 15, 2016

I mean...he wrote "we have changed to those of nylon" which apparently can be used longer and difficult to cut (bs). I think once the lens arrives if everything checks out well and the rolls shoot fine I'll keep the camera, hopefully this is the only issue with it. Talk about nerve wracking.

I sold my last ebay camera because it had issues and now this one, while no "fatal" issues seem to be present, was tampered with outside of Pentax's recommendations. I really don't want to open a case against him even though I know eBay will side with me, but if you make a major modification like this I would assume it's the right thing to do to warn buyers on the listing page! I'll email Eric right now and see what he makes of this...

AgX · Jan 16, 2016

Is that really a major modification?

ic-racer · Jan 16, 2016

Depending on the price you paid, I'd just use it until it breaks. There may or may not be 120 film available when that happens. If there is still film available, get another camera.

Norkusa · Jan 16, 2016

moodlover said:
What would it cost me for Eric to overhaul my camera? Not that I think it needs it but just to make sure everything is in top notch shape? I really don't want to dish out another few hundred bucks right now...I can't imagine repairs for this old thing to be easy on the wallet..

I would like to know this too. I have a working 67 that I'd like to have a normal check-up/CLA on but the last 2 cameras I sent him (LX's) cost me almost $250 each to have repaired. However those both had sticky mirror problems and needed more than just a check-up. If a basic CLA on a working 67 would cost me under $100, I'd sent mine out to him in a heartbeat.

Chrismat · Jan 16, 2016

I had an LX repaired by Eric a few years ago. One of the reasons it's more expensive to work on is because of the cost of replacing the water resistant seals the LX uses. For standard Pentax slrs, I have found his prices to be lower than most other people who can work on them, usually under $100. In regards to the 6X7, I believe the last time I contacted him a cla is $150. What that includes in terms of parts, special repairs, etc., I don't know. Best way to find out is to e-mail him. His work is top rate.

moodlover · Jan 16, 2016

AgX said:
Is that really a major modification?

I don't know if it's considered major but it is super important (to me anyway). At the least the seller should've said something about this, that is really why I'm making a big fuss about it. I asked the seller what other mods were made to the camera and he hasnt replied in 2 days, so I'm guessing he's just hoping I let this go quietly (ugh, bastard).

Norkusa said:
I would like to know this too. I have a working 67 that I'd like to have a normal check-up/CLA on but the last 2 cameras I sent him (LX's) cost me almost $250 each to have repaired. However those both had sticky mirror problems and needed more than just a check-up. If a basic CLA on a working 67 would cost me under $100, I'd sent mine out to him in a heartbeat.

Well considering he is an ex-pentax engineer I wouldn't be surprised if his prices were up there. I did get an email back from him though saying he's seen these nylon string replacement before but the meter accuracy ends up inaccurate if it's not exactly 90mm in length. He also said he would replace mine with a chain, and CLA it for under $300. Seems like a fair price but I just cant afford that right now.

I have a handheld incident meter I always use anyway so I don't mind a little inaccuracy, as long as this thing doesn't rip mid-shoot I am willing to bite this bullet *sigh* thanks for all the help folks

Kirks518 · Jan 16, 2016

moodlover said:
I don't know if it's considered major but it is super important (to me anyway). At the least the seller should've said something about this, that is really why I'm making a big fuss about it. I asked the seller what other mods were made to the camera and he hasnt replied in 2 days, so I'm guessing he's just hoping I let this go quietly (ugh, bastard).

For this reason, and this reason alone, you should send the camera back. The camera is NOT AS DESCRIBED. There have been modifies repair(s) done to the camera that were not disclosed, whether or not the seller knew about it. Without the chain, it is no longer a 'Pentax 6x7', it's a 'Modified Pentax 6x7'.

It may end up that the modification is perfectly acceptable, which you will (mostly) know once you try a lens on it, but while you're waiting for the lens, you need to file an INAD case with ebay. If nothing else, it gives you extra time. Ebay gives you about a week to ship it out, so if you wait until the second to last day of the return period, it'll give you extra time. If after trying it out with a lens (extensively), and you decide to keep it, you cab always just not send it back.

One other thing to keep in mind is the value of your peace of mind. At some point in the future, whether it's in 30 days, or 30 years, that cable may/will break. And when it does, you'll be saying to yourself you shouldn't have kept it...

Poisson Du Jour · Jan 16, 2016

AgX said:
Is that really a major modification?

Not so much a modification as a routine repair of a known troublesome part of the 6x7/ 67 bodies. But he should have been informed of this non-standard repair and the implications of it (for better or worse).

Sent from my LG-D855 using Tapatalk

Pentax 67 owners, my "ttl chain" does not look like a chain...help please

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