Pentacon SixTL vs Kiev 60 vs ???

BradS · Jan 11, 2010

lets talk about the east block 6x6 SLRs...I know nothing help me.

TIA.

Krzys · Jan 11, 2010

Also the Paktisix, (though my spelling is probably wrong) the predecessor to the pentacon six. And the Hasselblad copies, Salyut and Kiev 88. There are probably more.

Alienguru · Jan 12, 2010

Krzys · Jan 12, 2010

Care to elaborate, Alienguru?

werra · Jan 12, 2010

Yes, Kiev. Good overhauled Kiev 60, usually found as Arax in the States, beats Pentacon six. Better viewfinder, better prism.
With the lenses, it's the opposite. MC East-Germany lenses are superior to Soviet ones, especially by quality control.

That would be the big picture. Of course you can find decent P6 and a dog Zeiss.

Alienguru · Jan 12, 2010

Yeah, what I had in mind is exactly what werra said
and IMHO the shutter is less problematic - more acurate speeds, less vibrations

ricksplace · Jan 12, 2010

I have two Pentacon Sixes. Far better camera than the Kiev. try www.pentaconsix.com

The Pentacon Six got a bad rap from the earlier models, Prakisix, Pentacon, etc. The Pentacon Six TL is the newest of the line and is dependable. Load the camera correctly, and you will have no film spacing problems at all. Both of my cameras give 13 perfectly spaced shots on a roll of 120.

Build quality in the Pentacon Six is light years ahead of the Kievs. If you want a brighter prism, use the prism off the Kiev. It fits the Pentacon Six with an adapter. There are also brighter screens available for the Pentacon Six. Kievs need flocking to reduce flair. Not the Pentacon. It comes flocked from the factory.

Ask someone who has owned both and used both. I have. There is simply no comparison between the two. The Kievs are pretty much a crap shoot. You might get a good one. More probablility you will get a dud, even if it looks or is brand new.

I agree with the statements above regarding lenses. Quality control in the Russian (Ukranian) lenses is all over the map, just like the Kievs. The 250/3.5 Jupiter is not known for its quality, but the one I have is tack sharp. Lucky me! I have a Zeiss Flektogon 50/4 that is a dog and must be stopped down fo f11 to get edge to edge quality, but it's also an old lens with a lot of visible wear.. The Arsat 30/3.5 fisheye is absolutely stunning. The 80/2.8 Zeiss Biometar is an absolutely stunning lens, easily the equal of the planar.

Maybe a fellow apugger in your area will let you try one of each and you can see for yourself. I'd offer, but 3000 miles is a bit of a commute...

Slixtiesix · Jan 12, 2010

Just want to mention the Zeiss Jena Sonnar 180/2,8. Amazing Bokeh.
Can be had in single coated (black-chrome) or MC (all black) version.

herb · Jan 13, 2010

Pentacon et al

Doesn't Hartblei still up grade the Kiev's? I have a Hasselblad clone Hartblei which I find very nice to use, and they have a 45mm tilt shift lens for not a lot of rubles.

fatboy22 · Jan 13, 2010

Hi Brad,

I have used both and feel they are both great cameras. I have 3 Pentacon Six TL's ( got them cheap a few years ago). I also own the Kiev 60, a Praktisix IIA, Haminex 66 and a newer version of said camera the Exacta 66. These cameras all produce high quality negatives with the East German Jena lenses. I put together a set of these lenses over the last 5 years. 50mm Flektogon, 80mm Biometer, 120mm Biometer, 180mm Sonnar and 300mm Sonnar. All lenses are amazingly sharp, mine are all the newer multicoated ones. What can I say, I'm a sucker for these large SLRs.
See my gallery for several examples of these various lenses and camera body combinations. If you are interested in buying one of these fine cameras, check out Ebay seller Cupog. He sells many of these at very reasonable prices. He also knows how to service these and does a complete CLA on every camera he sells. I bought all my Pentacon Six TL bodies for $100 or less. The only one I have had to have serviced is the one I bought from somebody in the states. By the way Ross Yerkes in LA will work on these and he does a great job! My favorite combination is a Pentacon Six TL body with a (german) adapter to mount nice bright Keiv 60 prism on body and zeiss 80mm Biometer. It is true what they say about Pentacon Six prisms, they are very dim even with a good example of one. The Exakta 66 has a Rollei bright screen, it is by far the brightest viewing of all versions of the camera.

Jamie

BradS · Jan 14, 2010

Thanks everyone, but especially fatboy22 and ricksplace for their in depth reviews and background info.

I've looked at photos and ads for quite a few of these - both Kiev and Pentacon but have yet to be able to hold on ein my hands...the photos that I've seen form both have been striking.

Good to hear too that cupog is a reliable seller...I've looked at many, many of his ads.

Thanks.

And, please if anybody else has more to share...bring it!

Cainquixote · Jan 18, 2010

Yep cupog is awesome.
I've gotten a few lenses and a tlr from him.

Just curious why you are thinking kiev instead of getting a japanese 645.

Gerry M · Jan 19, 2010

Brad,
I have no experience with the Kiev 60 (had a Kiev 88CM for a week and returned it), but do have a Pentacon 6 TL, later model. It works just fine, no film spacing issues. I do load it carefully and follow the online guides. No issues with using it. I use it much more than my Bronica S2, which I also like, but prefer the P6. I have CZJ 80mm Biometer and 50mm Flektogon lenses. They are easily the equal to the same focal length Bronica Nikkors that I have. I do use the WLF, rather than the prism finder. Makes the camera much lighter and the view is much brighter. I bought the P6 on a whim, even after reading the negative reports on it. To sum it up, I am glad I bought it. Best of luck on your research.
Gerry

AgX · Jan 19, 2010

A interesting comparison (only in German but easy to translate for those machines):

http://www.baierfoto.de/Beratung_Kameravergleich.html

NJS · Jan 21, 2010

If you load P6 properly there'll be no framing issues - that is true, but I'd still go for Kiev60+CZJ lenses combination because P6 camera cheats on exposures pretty much. CLA helps for uncertain period of time but always be sure to check 1/30, 1/60, 1/125 and 1/250 before loading film... probably it'll fire 1/250 as 1/60 so there'll be plenty of overexposures. with low asa negatives often it's not a biggy but with slides and high asa films it's hell.
here's a little story from the guy which repairs my P6 : back in the day when these cameras where produced he bought a brand new copy which failed to proper expose just after two weeks. he got mad and instead of using his warranty he went to another shop and bought another one from another supplier. that one failed to expose at given speeds just right out of the box! so he ended up with Kiev60 later on. you won't hear word of praise for Kiev60s either but at least he'll recommend it if you plan to use all those beautiful Carl Zeiss Jena lenses.
best advice is to stay away from P6 and think of Kiev 88CM or Kiev60.

michaelbsc · Jan 24, 2010

NJS said:
If you load P6 properly there'll be no framing issues - that is true, .... ... you won't hear word of praise for Kiev60s either but at least he'll recommend it if you plan to use all those beautiful Carl Zeiss Jena lenses.
best advice is to stay away from P6 and think of Kiev 88CM or Kiev60.

Agreed that loading properly solves all of the framing issues.

Haven't ever used the Kiev, but I can say for certain that a good CLA on a P-6 TL makes it a joy to use. Mine was cheap, and after it was gone through by a good Ukrainian guy in Brooklyn it's flawless. Honestly, it worked pretty well when I bought it, but after a couple of years developed a problem with the shutter. (So there may be something to complain about in the design. Not arguing that.)

The CZJ lenses, however, are worth the trouble you may have getting a decent shooter. They are superb.

If you have the money, by all means jump in for a Hassie. But if you're a photography hobbiest and have to make do with a shoestring budget, then this is a great MF SLR set.

Stan160 · Jan 25, 2010

michaelbsc said:
Agreed that loading properly solves all of the framing issues.

It helps immensely, but from personal experience no matter how carefully you load, problems can remain. Sodde's law says that the one overlap of the day will occur on what would have been the best shot!

I paid to have my P6 modified with an indicator that provides positive confirmation that the film has advanced correctly. Well worth it for peace of mind, even though it cost more for the modification than I paid for the camera body!

Ian

Obscurant · Jan 25, 2010

Kiev 60 Pros:
- Better screen (much brighter) and magnifier lens can be changed if you have bad eyesight
- Any prism for Kiev brighter than for P6
- Vega 12 will leave you satisfied. It has Planar scheme
- Kiev 6c (Prior modification to Kiev 60) will fit you if you are left-handed as the shutter button is on the left side

P6 Pros:
- Both 80 and 120 biometars
- 180 Sonnar
- Little smaller than Kievs
- Maybe more accurate look

All rest that are no pros are contras

steven_e007 · Jan 25, 2010

I bought a brand new Kiev 60 many years ago. It was an awful camera with a shutter fault. I returned it under warrenty and got another one - also with a shutter fault. The company I bought it from did the decent thing and refunded my money - and then stopped dealing in them. During the time I had the camera I used put many rolls of film through it and had spacing problems (yes, I loaded it correctly) and frequenttly lines down the frame where the shutter had 'juddered'. It was a big, bulky, smelly camera (smelled of oil or grease) and felt cheap. I had amassed several lenses to go with it - so bought a second hand Pentecon 6 body instead. This has never given me any problems with spacing, shutter faults or other problems. It feels much better made, a little lighter and after many dozens of films has never failed. However, it has a slightly fragile feel to it - as if the wind on mechanism could strip at any minute. The shutter speeds are also not so very accurate. Consequently I use it mainly as a studio camera with flash.

I have a wide angle flektagon, a standard 80 mm biometar and a 180 mm sonnar. All very fine lenses. I also have extension tubes, bellows and copy stand adapter.

Personally I would cautiously recommend a P6 as a fragile camera for carefule amateur usage that allows the use of some fine lenses - but really couldn't recommend a Kiev 60 to anyone...

Just my own personal experience.

Bosaiya · Jan 25, 2010

Kiev 60 has one of the brightest screens I've ever used. Maybe I haven't used enough, but it's been pretty remarkable so far.

davela · Jan 26, 2010

These are not easy cameras or lenses to live with or use (I've owned the Kiev 60 and at least one Pentacon Six). With a good repair tech, lots of time to look for lenses, bodies and other items, and suffering other idiosyncrasies you can eventually get a working, (possibly slightly flaky system) going, but who needs this grief except for collectors? The same money will buy a decent Rolleiflex Planar or Xenotar 2.8, a camera of unquestioned pedigree and that's where my medium format investment is now (in a Rolleiflex 2.8C Planar specifically). I will admit that my medium format ambitions are modest and I can live with one focal length in the near term at least.

Bosaiya · Jan 26, 2010

davela said:
These are not easy cameras or lenses to live with or use (I've owned the Kiev 60 and at least one Pentacon Six). With a good repair tech, lots of time to look for lenses, bodies and other items, and suffering other idiosyncrasies you can eventually get a working, (possibly slightly flaky system) going, but who needs this grief except for collectors?

I've read plenty of accounts like yours and plenty like mine: everything has worked great so far, no problems at all. My understanding is that some cameras are well-made and some aren't. At least you'll know after a roll or two, I'd think. Test it out before you buy it or get one from someone with a return policy. It's a tool, nothing more.

davela said:
The same money will buy a decent Rolleiflex Planar or Xenotar 2.8, a camera of unquestioned pedigree and that's where my medium format investment is now (in a Rolleiflex 2.8C Planar specifically). I will admit that my medium format ambitions are modest and I can live with one focal length in the near term at least.

That's an apples and oranges comparison (and an awfully inexpensive Rollei!).

First, one of the great things about the system is the plethora of lenses available. If you only need the one lens (and you're happy with how it looks) here's not much reason to go the Kiev/Pentacon route. Or the Mamiya route.

The second point is that the lenses between the two systems look totally different - or can, depending on which Kiev/Pentacon lens you use. Not every photo cries out for a Planar, it's nice to have options.

Third, considering the minimal investment it's much less worrisome to take a Kiev/Pentacon into situations that would potentially lose the camera due to damage, theft, etc. I paid $100 for my setup and don't think twice about bringing along on bumpy rides.

Cainquixote · Jan 26, 2010

kievs can be rewarding to shoot with. they can also be the most irksome machine ever described as a camera.

It takes a special breed of person to put up with them. Flocking the mirror, box, babying the film advance, using fuji spools, or duct tape on the leader. Lenses that are a crapshoot depending on how much vodka the assemblyman had the night before.

I would much rather have a camera that works out of the box consistently.

That being said i haven't shot with mine in 2 years and i do miss it.

Bosaiya · Jan 26, 2010

I guess I just don't understand. I don't buy an apple when I want an orange, even though they're both fruit. I don't wear my boots to the beach or my flip-flops when climbing. I don't use digital cameras when I want fine art or take endless snapshots of my kids on 4x5 film. I don't shoot color when I want black & white. I don't shoot Efke when I want Neopan or print at grade two when I want grade four.

If you have a hankering for one thing and I have a craving for another then why not celebrate the differences instead of bringing up the faults of one while dismissing the limitations of the other?

herb · Jan 26, 2010

East bloc 6x6

I have a Hartblei, which is a spiffed up Kiev, and their 45 mm tilt shift lens. The lens is so good I am tempted to unload my Hasselblad.

Pentacon SixTL vs Kiev 60 vs ???

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