PCTEA anyone?

wogster · Mar 17, 2009

srs5694 said:
Part of my point is that "the hazards" are subject to interpretation by the document's author. For instance, I quickly found two MSDSes for water by Googling (Dead Link Removed, two). MSDS 1 sounds quite alarming -- under "Health Hazard Information" you find all sorts of disturbing things, like "Inhalation can result in asphyxiation and is often fatal" and "Excessive ingestion of liquid form can cause gastric distress and mild diarrhea." MSDS 2 contains the simple statement "Water is non-hazardous," along with "not applicable" in the specific sub-categories in which MSDS 1 provides dire warnings. (Oddly, though, MSDS 2 does recommend use of goggles and a lab coat when handling water!) These inconsistencies are real problems for somebody who wants basic safety data on chemicals. If you didn't already know what water was, you'd have a hard time figuring out how to handle it safely from examining those two MSDSes.

Okay, we have all seen funny MSDS documents, it's not a perfect system, but it's the only system we have at the moment.

The country where the MSDS is from has a lot to do with how it's written, one from the US tends to have a lot of detail, and tends to have stronger warnings then one from elsewhere, but then in a country where you can be sued for $100,000,000 for losing a $25 pair of pants, that is to be expected.

gainer · Mar 17, 2009

TEA is found in places where one would not expect to see a toxic substance. For example, it is combined with lauryl sulfate to form the lather in shampoos.

CBG · Mar 18, 2009

Common experience should tell you that many of the "hazards" in some MSDSs are of rather remote likelihood. Photographic technicians have a low statistical risk from their livelihood compared to the average... Were common photo chemicals as bad as suggested by the MSDSs, photo techs would be dropping like flies.

None of which is to say that there are no risks, but that the risks, however real, are less than one might think if one reads MSDSs without a dose of common sense. All that being said, the less than utterly common photo chemicals should be treated with utmost respect and care unless you know for sure they are OK. Better safe than sorry here.

TEA is as Gadget Gainer notes earlier, even a component in personal care products. I have a hard time conceiving it as being as bad as a MSDS might portray it.

ntenny · Mar 18, 2009

CBG said:
TEA is as Gadget Gainer notes earlier, even a component in personal care products. I have a hard time conceiving it as being as bad as a MSDS might portray it.

Agreed. On the other hand, people who have had burns from hot TEA say it's pretty awful, and with that in mind I absolutely agree with PE (and I think with everyone in the thread, actually) that it's best to warm it no more than necessary, and in a way that minimises the risk of having hot, viscous liquids around splashing on your skin at temperatures close to their flashpoints!

I'm comfortable heating TEA in a water bath. I would have some reservations about doing it in a microwave---they can heat awfully unevenly and produce extreme hot spots---although quite a few people seem not to have a problem with it. But the question of TEA's *toxicity* seems to me not to be worth worrying about, as long as I'm treating it like any other chemical that shouldn't be eaten. ("Keep out of children", as the warning label on a knife says.)

-NT

Photo Engineer · Mar 18, 2009

Here is a small smattering of information on TEA in cosmetics.

http://www.organicconsumers.org/bodycare/toxic_cosmetics.cfm

http://www.cosmeticsinfo.org/ingredient_details.php?ingredient_id=622

http://www.cosmeticsinfo.org/ingredient_more_details.php?ingredient_id=622

The bottom line is that it and DEA are not benign, but can be used.

PE

Kirk Keyes · Mar 18, 2009

You people should not fault MSDS for being too scary or not scary enough. You need to remember that they were traditionally intended for occupational hygienists and safety professionals, like fire fighters. So they may have details on health for small quantities of materials, and at the same time, they may list fire information for extremely large quantities of the same material.

Nowadays they are used with a much wider audience - employers, workers, supervisors, nurses, doctors, and emergency responders. And to ensure that all these MSDS users can quickly find the information that they need, the information needs to be presented in an easy-to-read format and written in a clear, precise and understandable manner. And this can lead to the complaints everyone is listing above.

And finally, remember that for commercial products, they really should not be used as an inclusive ingredient list. There are rules about how precise and what concentrations individual ingredients are listed or not listed.

Kirk Keyes · Mar 18, 2009

Photo Engineer said:
The bottom line is that it and DEA are not benign, but can be used.

Also keep in mind that there are regulations for topical application that are different than oral ingestion. There's lots of compounds that are used due to historical use that we may not consider all that "good" these days.

Photo Engineer · Mar 18, 2009

White lead, red lead and a variety of mercury salts such as cinnabar were once totally accepted as major ingredients in cosmetics including eye shadow and face creams. This was notwithstanding the fact that many of the "beauties" in the last several thousand years had severe skin rashes and eye conditions due to the cosmetics that supposedly made them beautiful.

PE

Kirk Keyes · Mar 18, 2009

And don't forget belladonna. I love that big eyed look.

gainer · Mar 18, 2009

Barbasol Shaving Cream, Pert shampoo and Leader brand of Moisturizing Lotion list triethanolamine on the containers as ingredients. I only looked at some things I have in my house.

I heated water in my two microwaves to boiling. I opened the door, immediately removed the water container and felt the walls and floor of the microwave. The only warm spot was the grating behind which is the incandescent lamp. As I said once before, long ago in dog years, the flow of cooling air is from the outside, over the electromechanical parts, then through the heating compartment back to the outside. There is no airflow from the heating compartment to the electromechanical parts.

Please look up the definition of "Flash point". There must be an open flame or spark or something equally hot near the surface of a liquid that is at or above its flash point in order for it to be ignited. Liquid that boils over will not fall on a hotter surface, but on a cooler one. That is not the same as when a hot plate is used. Do not use a hot plate unless you have a water bath between it and the TEA container. The water bath should be of sufficient area to catch any spillage of the TEA.

In any case, covering the TEA container with microwave-safe plastic wrap will minimize any chance of ignition.

Photo Engineer · Mar 18, 2009

Please read this page for a defninitve statement on TEA by the worlds largest supplier.

Yes, it is used, but it can also auto-combust and is subject to causing health problems. I suggest that we use it with caution and without excess heat. Avoid skin contact.

http://www.dow.com/webapps/lit/litorder.asp?filepath=productsafety/pdfs/noreg/233-00267.pdf&pdf=true

Carefully and safely handled, TEA is a useful product for the photographer, but carelessly handled it becomes problematic. Remember that your safety is in your hands.

My bottom line is that I care and wish only to make you all aware of the situations that may arise, not that will arise. This is so that you can take sensible precautions and use sensible means to use the materials you use. I use TEA myself, but at no higher than 120F in a water bath and always with safety glasses and protective gloves and lab coat. I even use a pair of lab shoes that go nowhere else in the house.

PE

Photo Engineer · Mar 18, 2009

More references about banning of TEA in Europe:

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...X&oi=book_result&resnum=4&ct=result#PPA324,M1

PE

KOG · Mar 18, 2009

Soon your urine will be considered toxic waste if you have taken any prescription drugs (or illegal ones!)

Of course I am being sarcastic, but the fact is, authorities can track a city's drug use by analyzing the waste water from the sewers.

Kevin

Oh, I forgot to add - I use PC-TEA, and I heat it in a microwave. Thirty seconds, then check temperature, and repeat.

wogster · Mar 18, 2009

gainer said:
Barbasol Shaving Cream, Pert shampoo and Leader brand of Moisturizing Lotion list triethanolamine on the containers as ingredients. I only looked at some things I have in my house.

I heated water in my two microwaves to boiling. I opened the door, immediately removed the water container and felt the walls and floor of the microwave. The only warm spot was the grating behind which is the incandescent lamp. As I said once before, long ago in dog years, the flow of cooling air is from the outside, over the electromechanical parts, then through the heating compartment back to the outside. There is no airflow from the heating compartment to the electromechanical parts.

Please look up the definition of "Flash point". There must be an open flame or spark or something equally hot near the surface of a liquid that is at or above its flash point in order for it to be ignited. Liquid that boils over will not fall on a hotter surface, but on a cooler one. That is not the same as when a hot plate is used. Do not use a hot plate unless you have a water bath between it and the TEA container. The water bath should be of sufficient area to catch any spillage of the TEA.

In any case, covering the TEA container with microwave-safe plastic wrap will minimize any chance of ignition.

One thing though, often a material that contains trace amounts of a chemical must list it as an ingredient, as required by various laws in different countries, so if your making 1,000L batch of shampoo and add a ml of TEA you must still list it as an ingredient. A corporation developing an ingredient list for a product that is sold internationally, or that could be sold internationally is likely to develop one ingredient list for the strictest country and use that everywhere. This would be a different level of exposure then dealing with a litre of the stuff. Which would be different from a fire department dealing with a train wreck that has a 50,000L tank car full of the stuff.

One last comment from this cheap seat, I would rather take too many precautions when dealing with a potentially toxic material, then not enough precautions, so an overly cautious MSDS is probably a good thing.

Murray Kelly · Mar 19, 2009

PE's first link lost me when I couldn't see any references quoted, and exploring around the site led me to see they oppose genetic engineering. My own belief on that one is that we will have to have it to feed the world, 'real soon, now'. OT I know, but they sound pretty extreme in their beliefs. I didn't explore further to see their attitude to ethyl alcohol. This is another explosive risk.

As for toxics - my good lady wife often applies PPD to her head in the quest to stay young looking. No warning of mine will stop her.

I have seen ether fires - always as a staged event - and have never witnessed a fire/explosion at work and none of my acquantances have, either, and I used it a lot in my early days. It fell from favour because it made 1:8 people vomit postop nothing to do with fires. Real cheap for emerging economies. The actual percentages ranges that explosions occur at are usually very narrow in air. TEA is something like 3.3 to 8% IIRC. Outside that range it won't go bang.

Whatever PE saw to make the refrigerator door fly off must have been remarkable because of the temperature alone. Also the door might have just been closed? The spark from the light switching off would've been much more intense than any at turn on. Perhaps we should turn the microwave off at the wall after heating TEA? I agree - heat slowly, and test often. Anything without water often heats way faster than you expect.
Murray

Photo Engineer said:
Here is a small smattering of information on TEA in cosmetics.
http://www.organicconsumers.org/bodycare/toxic_cosmetics.cfm
http://www.cosmeticsinfo.org/ingredient_details.php?ingredient_id=622
http://www.cosmeticsinfo.org/ingredient_more_details.php?ingredient_id=622
The bottom line is that it and DEA are not benign, but can be used.
PE

Murray Kelly · Mar 19, 2009

Re the German (1984) referrence to possible nitrosamine (a carcinogen) conversion of TEA, on page 4 of the information sheet, Dow claims it never happens.
Murray

Photo Engineer · Mar 19, 2009

Murray;

I did not search the site you mention, but their opinions notwithstanding there is a lot of data out there to make us careful when we use TEA. I would not want a TEA spill for example.

But, in any event, you are right about Dow, but then they do warn about nitrosamines. You see, DEA is also suspected of forming nitrosamines and they didn't test that. It comes as a common impurity in the grade of TEA that we often use.

The refrigerator door was shut. I thought I had mentioned that. It was a demo (just as yours I suspect) to show that only approved refrigerators could be used to store chemicals. But the fires and explosions in the lab that I have seen were totally unexpected and were experienced by good lab workers. After all, the definition of accident is having something bad happen unexpectedly.

Just FYI, I saw a bad flightline accident in which an electronics tech shorted the firing system on a (supposedly disabled) Sidewinder which fired directly into the LOX truck parked in front of the plane, which was carrying a full load of Sidewinders and frag bombs. I can still feel the heat on my back today. It was like a flashbulb about the size of Manhattan going off behind me. All 12 techs made it over the revetment though and everyone survived.

PE

drazak · Mar 19, 2009

Gainer;

The meaning of flash point is that if any object at that temperature touches the substance it will burst into flame, the microwave will not cause ineven heating within itself, but in what it is heating, your microwave heated TEA or water will have hot spots and cool spots. One of the hot spots may be well over the flash point and cause all of your TEA to combust, I'm fairly certain that that is why PE is warning you about microwaving your TEA to heat it. A microwave works by producing electromagnetic waves on the resonance frequency of O-H single bonds, vibrating them and adding energy.

Ben

Murray Kelly · Mar 19, 2009

Ouch! Sheesh! That would've been life altering to me! The LOX truck thing. I bet you still dream about it?

I did notice the Dow dichotomy re nitrosamines but figured it was a bottom covering statement. They were so adamant initially that it didn't hapen w TEA and it was easy to extrapolate to MEA/DEA. This is without my going back to the monograph.

As for spills - well, of course. Not a happy situation at all. We are talking (for me anyway) < 100ml. And if you're into pyrocat-M it's 7 ml. The glycol (we have ethylene) would be a greater hazard. But, OK - be alert! (What this country needs is more lerts) A sign I saw sprayed on the London underground.

Yes accidents are like disasters - and the term 'Disaster Planning' is an oxymoron. Planning for the unplannable?

Your input appreciated, as usual
Murray

Photo Engineer said:
Murray;

I did not search the site you mention, but their opinions notwithstanding there is a lot of data out there to make us careful when we use TEA. I would not want a TEA spill for example.

But, in any event, you are right about Dow, but then they do warn about nitrosamines. You see, DEA is also suspected of forming nitrosamines and they didn't test that. It comes as a common impurity in the grade of TEA that we often use.

The refrigerator door was shut. I thought I had mentioned that. It was a demo (just as yours I suspect) to show that only approved refrigerators could be used to store chemicals. But the fires and explosions in the lab that I have seen were totally unexpected and were experienced by good lab workers. After all, the definition of accident is having something bad happen unexpectedly.

Just FYI, I saw a bad flightline accident in which an electronics tech shorted the firing system on a (supposedly disabled) Sidewinder which fired directly into the LOX truck parked in front of the plane, which was carrying a full load of Sidewinders and frag bombs. I can still feel the heat on my back today. It was like a flashbulb about the size of Manhattan going off behind me. All 12 techs made it over the revetment though and everyone survived.

PE

gainer · Mar 19, 2009

drazak said:
Gainer;

The meaning of flash point is that if any object at that temperature touches the substance it will burst into flame, the microwave will not cause ineven heating within itself, but in what it is heating, your microwave heated TEA or water will have hot spots and cool spots. One of the hot spots may be well over the flash point and cause all of your TEA to combust, I'm fairly certain that that is why PE is warning you about microwaving your TEA to heat it. A microwave works by producing electromagnetic waves on the resonance frequency of O-H single bonds, vibrating them and adding energy.

Ben

I don't see that definition anywhere. The flashpoint is the temperature at which the partial vapor pressure in air is such that it can be ignited by an object, spark, etc, that is at or higher than the ignition temperature. The flashpoint of TEA is over 400 F. Ignition cannot occur without oxygen. A portion of the TEA being heated might be higher than the flashpoint, indeed higher than the ignition point, if it is below the surface and still not ignite because ignition needs oxygen as well as a sufficiently high temperature.

Certainly, be as careful as you can, but if you are so fearful of what might happen if several things occurred at once, then stay out of automobiles, public buildings, forests, and for Heaven's sake do not go swimming. You're on your own if you should happen to pick your nose or scratch an insect bite.

Photo Engineer · Mar 19, 2009

Murray;

Yes, I can still picture it in my minds eye. The truck tank was bursting and suspended in the air at about 100 ft when I turned and the wheels were turning slowly as they burned and melted. My hair was singing and I had to pick my hat up off the ground. And then it REALLY blew! I personally believe that the tank truck was nearly empty as the explosion (in retrospect) was not as big as could be expected from a full tank truck of LOX.

I was on my way to lunch with the base armaments officer at the OC. We ate next to a picture window watching the expanding mushroom cloud, as he described the accident to me. He had a full report by the time we met up. He asked me where I was when it went. It seems that his crew got out the west side of the revetment and I was on the south east side walking east.

In any event, and for a variety of reasons, I support a sane careful approach to handling chemicals, as we never know when they are going to do their own thing. And this includes explosions, changes to our metabolism and potential changes to our genetics. That is why I treat them with respect and why for many years I underwent blood tests twice a year. Kodak did not gamble with our health. That is why we worked so hard to eliminate toxic heavy metals and toxic organics from our formulas.

PE

gainer · Mar 19, 2009

I should have mentioned that one could avoid hot TEA in making PC-TEA by mixing PC-Glycol and diluting the result with an equal amount of TEA straight out of the jug after everything cools off. Use 1+25 with this mix where you would use 1+50 with PC-TEA. Now we can get into arguments about the safety of glycol, but if we use the propylene type, toxicity is not a big deal except for cats. You can, in fact, make it a 2-part system with TEA as part 2 added at time of use. If you keep it in a bread-rising oven at 104 F it will be easy to pour and measure. Now it is not so important to get the 99% TEA. The pH of the Technical grade is higher, but a little experimenting will get you the right proportions.

I have not used the Tech grade. I'm not sure you can get it from The Chemistry Store. It wouldn't be that much cheaper anyway. Do not get the low freezing type. It is 15% water. I don't think The Chemistry Store has that, either.

Zathras · Mar 20, 2009

gainer said:
I should have mentioned that one could avoid hot TEA in making PC-TEA by mixing PC-Glycol and diluting the result with an equal amount of TEA straight out of the jug after everything cools off. Use 1+25 with this mix where you would use 1+50 with PC-TEA. Now we can get into arguments about the safety of glycol, but if we use the propylene type, toxicity is not a big deal except for cats. You can, in fact, make it a 2-part system with TEA as part 2 added at time of use. If you keep it in a bread-rising oven at 104 F it will be easy to pour and measure. Now it is not so important to get the 99% TEA. The pH of the Technical grade is higher, but a little experimenting will get you the right proportions.

I have not used the Tech grade. I'm not sure you can get it from The Chemistry Store. It wouldn't be that much cheaper anyway. Do not get the low freezing type. It is 15% water. I don't think The Chemistry Store has that, either.

Why not just make PC Glycol like Pat says, and then you still have a long lived developer concentrate, but one that allows you to use the activator of your choice? As I see it, this makes it a much more flexible developer that you can tweak to suit your specific needs. Just my 2c for whatever that's worth.

Mike

Murray Kelly · Mar 20, 2009

PE - I still get shudders every time I see it in my mind's eye.
Murray

sanking · Mar 20, 2009

OK, today I set up a worst case scenario for TEA and Propylene Glycol.

A microwave was installed about 150' from the back of my sun room. In the microwave I put 250 ml containers of TEA, Glycol, Gasoline, and Acetone, open tops.

All in place I retired to the safety of the inside of my house and turned on the power. Left it on for 20 minutes. Nothing exploded. After a few minutes I carefully opened the door of the microwave and measured the temperature of the solutions. All were well over 350F.

Sandy King

PCTEA anyone?

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