PcatHD Question for Sandy King and others experience also please.

jimgalli · Sep 15, 2005

I've been routinely developing 5 8X10 sheets of Efke 100 in a JOBO 3005 tank with 800ml of PyroCat HD 2:2:100. The negs are useable if a bit flat. Suddenly a light bulb comes on. (I'm not the brightest plate in the cupboard but eventually I catch on). That's only 160ml per 80 sq. in. of film. I'm thinking my negs are perhaps flat because the developer has exhausted itself before the highlights had finished building to where they should have been.

What's your experience with min. solution / sq. in. developed. The JOBO is fussy with that big tank and doesn't really want to slosh much more than that amount.

Jorge · Sep 15, 2005

jimgalli said:
I've been routinely developing 5 8X10 sheets of Efke 100 in a JOBO 3005 tank with 800ml of PyroCat HD 2:2:100. The negs are useable if a bit flat. Suddenly a light bulb comes on. (I'm not the brightest plate in the cupboard but eventually I catch on). That's only 160ml per 80 sq. in. of film. I'm thinking my negs are perhaps flat because the developer has exhausted itself before the highlights had finished building to where they should have been.

What's your experience with min. solution / sq. in. developed. The JOBO is fussy with that big tank and doesn't really want to slosh much more than that amount.

I use 500 ml per sheet in the Jobo tank, so as you see I can only do 2 sheets per run. I am aware that I could probably do 3 sheets with about 300 ml per sheet but Pyrocat is so cheap there is no sense in taking risks to save a few pennies.

I think you are pushing the limit with sheets and only 800 ml, you might want to do maybe 3 sheets instead of the 5. I think you will see great changes.

sanking · Sep 15, 2005

jimgalli said:
I've been routinely developing 5 8X10 sheets of Efke 100 in a JOBO 3005 tank with 800ml of PyroCat HD 2:2:100. The negs are useable if a bit flat. Suddenly a light bulb comes on. (I'm not the brightest plate in the cupboard but eventually I catch on). That's only 160ml per 80 sq. in. of film. I'm thinking my negs are perhaps flat because the developer has exhausted itself before the highlights had finished building to where they should have been.

What's your experience with min. solution / sq. in. developed. The JOBO is fussy with that big tank and doesn't really want to slosh much more than that amount.

Jim,

All of my test results with Pyrocat-HD are based on the use of approximately 3.5 ml of developer for every sq. inch of film. That would be 70ml for a 4X5 sheet and about 280mm per sheet for 8X10, and you are way below that at 160 ml per sheet. If you use less solution you will have to extend time of develoment to compensate. But I don't believe the developer is exhausting, especially with the 2:2:100 dilution so long as your development times are not over about 16-18 minutes. Have you just tried to lengthen time of develoment to see what would happen?

One obvious down side to using such small amounts of solution and longer development times is the risk of greater B+F or general stain.

Sandy

jimgalli · Sep 15, 2005

Thanks Jorge and Sandy. Guess I better do some testing. Likely have to go to 3 sheets instead of 5.

Richard Wasserman · Sep 15, 2005

Jim,
How about using a greater quantity of developer? I routinely use 1 liter and have used as much as 1.5L in a 3010 tank with no problems. This could allow you to do a few more sheets at a time.

Richard

Donsta · Sep 15, 2005

Sandy is not joking about greater general stain either - the combination of Ekfe100, Pyrocat and the Jobo is not the most ideal and big time general stain can be an issue - as slow as possible on the rotation and use a lot of developer (at least 1.5l if you're going to fill the tank with film.

scootermm · Sep 15, 2005

Im not the extensive tester type jim but Ill throw my 2 cents worth in about quantity and developers. I make 2.5L of working solution at 1:1:100 to develop 2 7x17.
Thats roughly 240 sq/in to 2500ml of dev. Giving about 10ml a sq/in.
(unless my rudementary math is off - a possibility) and I seem to do just fine with that. Although if I develope 3 sheets of 7x17 in 2.5L then the third one usually takes alot longer.
thats tray developement and not in a rotary system for what its worth.

sanking · Sep 15, 2005

Donsta said:
Sandy is not joking about greater general stain either - the combination of Ekfe100, Pyrocat and the Jobo is not the most ideal and big time general stain can be an issue - as slow as possible on the rotation and use a lot of developer (at least 1.5l if you're going to fill the tank with film.

My own results with Efke PL100 have given very low B+F, about the same as FP4+, when developed in tubes with slow rotation, and I have tested several emulsion batches of the film. I am at a loss to understand why you are getting so much general fog, but my own results are very different.

Perhaps I was just lucky and got some very fresh film.

Sandy

noseoil · Sep 15, 2005

Jim, I use 100 ml of developer for 4x5 on Efke 100 film, at 2:2:100. This is more laziness on my part than anything, as 100 ml of distilled water is easy to measure and even numbers are simple to measure.

For minimal agitation (first minute of agitation followed by 10 seconds every 3 minutes) I use a 1:1:150 dilution. Since I'm using tubes (6" long, 1.5" diameter abs) for this process, I actually mix 240 ml to make sure the film is completely submerged between agitatation cycles. This may be a bit much for the volume of solution, but as others have said, I'm not going to worry about a few pennies when a decent shot is at stake. They are so rare for me that this isn't a consideration. tim

waterlily · Sep 15, 2005

I develop 5 sheets of 8x10 in the Jobo drum with 900ml of developer in the 2:2:100 dilution and replace with fresh developer at the half way point of time. The negatives do not seem to lack contrast.

jimgalli · Sep 15, 2005

waterlily said:
I develop 5 sheets of 8x10 in the Jobo drum with 900ml of developer in the 2:2:100 dilution and replace with fresh developer at the half way point of time. The negatives do not seem to lack contrast.

Hey! I like it. I waste so much 8X10 film I don't really want to have to cut down from 5 to 3. And my CPP is so tired I know it wouldn't tolerate 1500ml.

Donsta · Sep 15, 2005

Sandy

It must have to do with what's going on in a drum on the Jobo - rotation is around 22RPM at the slowest possible setting and I think that the film spends a lot of time out of the juice, so to speak. When I use Pyrocat in trays on Efke100, I get perfect results. This is a very film specific issue - I get perfect results with J&C 400 and HP5+ - it's only with Efke that I have stain problems. When I use a 3:2:100 dilution, I get better results, but there's still quite a bit of general stain (like too much). I have not yet tried the citric acid thing, but I will do soon as I like the film.

photomc · Sep 15, 2005

Jim, can only offer experience and judgement from that. I use a Beseler 8x10 drum for 2-4 4x5's, 2 5x7's or 1 8x10. For each one, I use the same volume of Pyrocat-HD 250ml to 300ml at 2+2+100 (BTW, generally make up at least 500ml or 1000ml at a time). So, that is anywhere from 40 to 80 sq. in. of film (ok, admit to being math challanged, so I could be wrong). All negatives appear to be good (as long as I do my part with the exposure). After some additional testing, using 12.5 minutes at 74F...hey it's Texas in the summer time, and can keep the temp at 74 from start to finish.

The only issue I had was with dichroic fog, and it would appear that the culprit was one of the used tanks I had picked up. It was cleaned when I got it, but it did show chemical stains on the inside that did not seem to want to come off. This one tank tends to give the dichroic fog where the others (read cleaner) do not, and with increased use, the fog has become very faint. All of this is with Efke PL 100, in different film size...b+f reads .22-.24 (unexposed sheet of film, blue channel - no uv).

So, don't know if it helps any, but at least gives you some additional information - which can just confuse the issue sometimes. Guess what I would do at this point is process 2-3 sheets with everything else being the same and compare the density to an image processed with 5 sheets. Best way I can think of to compare, others may have a better idea.

jimgalli · Sep 15, 2005

I'll clarify just a bit. I'm getting good strong useable negs. My problem is I bought a batch of the Efke ASA 25 in 4X5 and that stuff is so pretty that it made me unhappy with how the 100 looked in comparison. BTW I do the E25 at 1:1:100 11 minutes. I'll go waste a bunch of film this weekend and work on it a bit.

sanking · Sep 15, 2005

Donsta said:
Sandy

It must have to do with what's going on in a drum on the Jobo - rotation is around 22RPM at the slowest possible setting and I think that the film spends a lot of time out of the juice, so to speak. When I use Pyrocat in trays on Efke100, I get perfect results. This is a very film specific issue - I get perfect results with J&C 400 and HP5+ - it's only with Efke that I have stain problems. When I use a 3:2:100 dilution, I get better results, but there's still quite a bit of general stain (like too much). I have not yet tried the citric acid thing, but I will do soon as I like the film.

This is very weird. JandC 400 and HP5+ are films that develop a lot more B+F for me in rotary processing than Efke PL100. However, my rotary processing is at a much slower speed, in the 5-10 RPM area. This is the only thing that could explain our different results, especially since you get very low B+F with Efke and Pyrocat in tray processing.

BTW, I think you mean the "ascorbic acid" thing, right? If you really meant citric acid you have me stumped. However, if you are unable to lower the RPM of your Jobo, here is what I would suggest. Mix up a solution of 1% ascorbic acid and add about 5-10 ml of this solution per liter of working Pyrocat solution. Use the same amount for all dilutions from 1:1:100 to 5:3:100. I am optimistic that this will lower B+F.

Sandy

photomc · Sep 15, 2005

Sandy, does the "ascorbic acid" call for any reduction in developing time? Or can established times be used...my guess is it would require additional testing to confirm, but was wondering if you had any numbers on this.

sanking · Sep 15, 2005

photomc said:
Sandy, does the "ascorbic acid" call for any reduction in developing time? Or can established times be used...my guess is it would require additional testing to confirm, but was wondering if you had any numbers on this.

Mike,

Adding ascorbic acid in the amount suggested will bump average contrast from about log 0.10 to log 0.20, depending on CI desired and time of development.

I think it is more of a refinement to technique than a change that would involve a lot of new testing. However, to get back on the same playing field I would reduce time of development by about 10% when adding the ascorbic.

Sandy

User Removed · Sep 15, 2005

I develop ONE sheet of Efke 100 8x10 in 200ml of PyrocatHD 2-2-100, 68 degrees, 6 minutes.

This is getting me perfect negatives for G-3 AZO.

I know everyone does something different, but I have just finally worked out something that works well for me and produces good negatives.

Best of luck to you.

Ryan McIntosh

photomc · Sep 15, 2005

Thanks Sandy,....sorry for the detour Jim..

Bruce Osgood · Sep 15, 2005

McPhotoX said:
I develop ONE sheet of Efke 100 8x10 in 200ml of PyrocatHD 2-2-100, 68 degrees, 6 minutes.

Ryan McIntosh

Is that tray, drum, dip/dunk or what?

User Removed · Sep 16, 2005

Bruce (Camclicker) said:
Is that tray, drum, dip/dunk or what?

I actually use a Ilfachrome drum and rotor. It is made for developing color prints in, but it works perfect for sheet fim. Slide the film into the drum, pour in the developer, and set it on the rotor for 6 mintues. I have not measure how fast it rotates thought, but its quite abit faster then a Jobo.

I tried processing in trays, but could not get even development and my negatives were just coming out funky. The rotating drum gives me a very smooth image and alot sharper image then I was getting before.

eddie gunks · Jan 16, 2008

okay! i am 2.5 years too late on this thread....BUT you can see i am using the search function!

i was looking for the min developer i needed when i use pyro hd.

sandy, if you could clarify "70ml/ 4x5 sheet" that would help me. (i may not be the sharpest crayon either....) i am using 1:1:100. so the min i would be using for 1 sheet would be .7 : .7 : 70. i never plan to mix this like this but i am just making sure that my math is correct and i fully understand.

i am a bit confused because the OP is using 2:2:100. so he is using twice as much developer concentrate as i am. i hope to some day get all this.......

thanks for the help on this.

sanking said:
Jim,

All of my test results with Pyrocat-HD are based on the use of approximately 3.5 ml of developer for every sq. inch of film. That would be 70ml for a 4X5 sheet and about 280mm per sheet for 8X10, and you are way below that at 160 ml per sheet. If you use less solution you will have to extend time of develoment to compensate. But I don't believe the developer is exhausting, especially with the 2:2:100 dilution so long as your development times are not over about 16-18 minutes. Have you just tried to lengthen time of develoment to see what would happen?

One obvious down side to using such small amounts of solution and longer development times is the risk of greater B+F or general stain.

Sandy

Shawn Dougherty · Jan 16, 2008

eddie gunks said:
i am using 1:1:100. so the min i would be using for 1 sheet would be .7 : .7 : 70. i never plan to mix this like this but i am just making sure that my math is correct and i fully understand.

The math is correct. I use syringes to measure my P-Cat and highly recommend them, makes things quite easy and precise.

Ian Grant · Jan 16, 2008

Eddie, like the OP I use Pyrocat HD @ 2:2:100 but only for my tray processed 10"x8" negs. I do this because I want much shorter developing times, I don't like spending so long in the dark.

Unlike Ryan I get better negatives with tray processing and really don't like the J&C welding rod developer tubes I bought. For 5x4 and 120/35mm where I use Jobo & Paterson tanks the 1:1:100 dilution is far better.

Ian

sanking · Jan 16, 2008

eddie gunks said:
okay!
sandy, if you could clarify "70ml/ 4x5 sheet" that would help me. (i may not be the sharpest crayon either....) i am using 1:1:100. so the min i would be using for 1 sheet would be .7 : .7 : 70. i never plan to mix this like this but i am just making sure that my math is correct and i fully understand.

i am a bit confused because the OP is using 2:2:100. so he is using twice as much developer concentrate as i am. i hope to some day get all this.......

thanks for the help on this.

Eddie,

Your math is correct.

Some people prefer the 2:2:100 dilution as it is more energetic and develops a given film faster to the same contrast. I calculate that you reduce development times with the 2:2:100 dilution about 35% compared to the 1:1:100 dilution. In other words, if your standard is ten minutes with the 1:1:100 dilution, try about six and one-half minutes with 2:2:100 to get the same contrast.

Sandy

PcatHD Question for Sandy King and others experience also please.

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