Path to better printing

Bill Burk · Jul 20, 2013

tkamiya said:
You, too?

Small world, eh?

Steven,

Your original question called to mind a quote in a 'Zone VI Newsletter' by Fred Picker (No. 31, January 1982).

"The printer of a photograph linguistically presents to himself the situation he confronts. He can improve the print only to the extent that he can point to and name its shortcomings." - Alexander Jamison, 1978

I'd explain what that means to me, but my interpretation might detract from its impact. For now I think it would be better to leave the quote standing alone and let the thought sink in and mean something to you...

Bob Carnie · Jul 20, 2013

I like that quote Bill

I see it simply as (putting tone where you think it is required), how you do it seems to trouble a lot of workers here.

Bill Burk said:
Small world, eh?

Steven,

Your original question called to mind a quote in a 'Zone VI Newsletter' by Fred Picker (No. 31, January 1982).

"The printer of a photograph linguistically presents to himself the situation he confronts. He can improve the print only to the extent that he can point to and name its shortcomings." - Alexander Jamison, 1978

I'd explain what that means to me, but my interpretation might detract from its impact. For now I think it would be better to leave the quote standing alone and let the thought sink in and mean something to you...

slm · Jul 22, 2013

I was just reading about f-stop printing, but it seems to require a timer than can be set to fractions of a second, right ? (mine can't)

Bill, that is a great quote ! it's got me thinking...

I do have a question (for everyone). When you find the min exposure time to get max black using the clear bit of leader, do you use that as the starting time for your test strips ?

Oh, and I too have a half frame camera, a Ricoh Auto Half E. I think I have the negative carrier for it too

Many thanks everyone
Steven

(I will post an update after my next print session, hopefully one night this week)

Mark Fisher · Jul 22, 2013

I think the best thing to do is to forget about split printing, burning or dodging. The first step to getting a good print is nailing the exposure and the contrast. The technique I use to do this is to use test strips I cut from a sheet and expose the strips in the same place where the key element is. Expose it as your "normal" contrast (2 or 3) over a range of times. Make sure you get a time that is too much and one that is too little based on the highlights only. Then, tweak the contrast to get the blacks you want. The time may need to be tweaked after you nail the contrast. Don't be tempted by short cuts until you are consistently making good prints. Oh, yeah, and it takes a lot of paper in the garbage to make a good print!

Thomas Bertilsson · Jul 22, 2013

Mark Fisher said:
I think the best thing to do is to forget about split printing, burning or dodging. The first step to getting a good print is nailing the exposure and the contrast. The technique I use to do this is to use test strips I cut from a sheet and expose the strips in the same place where the key element is. Expose it as your "normal" contrast (2 or 3) over a range of times. Make sure you get a time that is too much and one that is too little based on the highlights only. Then, tweak the contrast to get the blacks you want. The time may need to be tweaked after you nail the contrast. Don't be tempted by short cuts until you are consistently making good prints. Oh, yeah, and it takes a lot of paper in the garbage to make a good print!

Thanks for keeping it real, Mark. It's easy to get carried away with too much stuff and forget about the very important basics. Exposure and contrast - that's where it all begins.

jvo · Jul 22, 2013

for me

make a good negative

jvo

removed account4 · Jul 22, 2013

the thing is that having a good negative doesn't make you a good printer ..
it makes printing easy because the negative lends itself well to being printed.
if you have an underexposed, or over exposed negative one where there is excessive contrast
or flatness or something else, THAT will force you to learn how to print.
i used to purposefully load film in a camera shoot at the wrong fstop and shutter speed,
and put the wrong asa into the camera so the meter was useless
then process everything in a batch ( pan f, plus x, tri x tmz &c ) and then try to print everything i could
off of all the rolls ...
the thing is that not every negative will be a good negative, and it might be something you want to print ...

Bill Burk · Jul 22, 2013

nextreme said:
I was just reading about f-stop printing, but it seems to require a timer than can be set to fractions of a second, right ? (mine can't)

Bill, that is a great quote ! it's got me thinking...

I do have a question (for everyone). When you find the min exposure time to get max black using the clear bit of leader, do you use that as the starting time for your test strips ?

Oh, and I too have a half frame camera, a Ricoh Auto Half E. I think I have the negative carrier for it too

Many thanks everyone
Steven

(I will post an update after my next print session, hopefully one night this week)

F-Stop printing is as simple as using the sequence 5 - 10 - 20 - 40 seconds (doubling each step) instead of 5 - 10 - 15 - 20 for your test strips. (I personally use 13 - 16 - 20 - 25 - 32 seconds because it gives me "third-stops"). Unless your times are under 10 seconds you probably won't need fractional second precision.

The minimum-time-to-maximum-black is associated with another "Fred Picker" philosophy, where he would consistently expose negatives to a precise minimum necessary exposure (to look good at that point). In reality your best test strip selections may not relate closely to that black strip printed from the clear leader. Of course if that strip is dingy gray when the rest of the print looks realistic, it might mean you should increase the paper contrast.

Thomas Bertilsson · Jul 22, 2013

Michael R 1974 said:
John makes an excellent point in my opinion. Consistent, high quality negatives certainly make printing less troublesome, but developing printing skill is where the biggest bang for the buck is. A great printer can often work wonders even with a crap quality negative and save the image. A mediocre printer on the other hand will probably make mediocre prints of perfect negatives, and be at a loss to print from crap negatives (which will inevitably happen). I'd take some proverbial pages out of Ansel's books on this issue. He was able to control most of his negatives very well, but some of his most powerful images exist despite relatively poor negative quality.

I think the intention should be to make a great negative. It would be rather counterproductive to make crappy negatives, because at the end of the day we all screw up enough times anyway that we are challenged to make a good print.

Sure it's more difficult to make a good print from a shitty negative, and it does teach us to appreciate AND recognize the good ones. The increased difficulty probably does make us better printers, but I don't think anybody here can recommend to make it a goal to make shitty negs just to learn to print.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2

removed account4 · Jul 22, 2013

hi thomas

i agree with you, the goal should be to make great negatives and great prints ...

what i was suggesting ( and suggested to do on page 2 ) is to print EVERYTHING that you can get,
even if the films are crappy, even if the negative isn't film .. everything ... ( crayon, charcoal water glass, cliche verre, ink &c )

while i learned an immeasurable amount working for a portrait photographer whose every negative was PERFECT ...
i learned even more when i was working with the dregs ...

the problem is, no one when they are learning to print has perfect negatives, they just their 2 or 10 years worth of crappy negatives
poorly exposed backlit under developed ... speaking for myself, i had at least 10 years worth (now its more like 30 )
there's nothing wrong about poorly exposing and processing film ON PURPOSE .. it teaches you about film too
if someone has a roll of film, expired, fresh, whatever, and they shoot crappy stuff on purpose, and process it wrong
it will teach them how the film reacts with light, and time, and developer, nothing wrong with that ...

most people take other people's word for things they never bother to learn anything on their own, i'd rather learn on my own,
since 9 times out of ten, people who dispense advice just regurgitate what someone else told them without any first hand experience.
on the internet and in forums especially ... and in "real life" yikes! i would say 90% of the people i would talk with
during the time i was teaching myself to print better, had no clue and they just spewed nonsense ...
and if i showed them a negative and a print i conjured from it they insisted i didn't, it wasn't from that negative, or some other load of BS ...

now i can pretty much print anything that comes into my hands, client work, or my negatives that obviously, considered by most to be pretty crappy LOL
every once in a while i still pick up semi-translucent trash from the street or recycle bin or a piece of glass smeared with something or whatever .. and make a print from it ...

YMMV

slm · Jul 23, 2013

Its about 7:00am and I'm heading into the city for an early morning walk about photo shoot. Its very grey and overcast.

I don't know if this will make something difficult or easy to print, but I'll use something from this shoot for my next try. Maybe I can include a picture of the negative for opinions, and the print too.

Steven

Moopheus · Jul 23, 2013

nextreme said:
I was just reading about f-stop printing, but it seems to require a timer than can be set to fractions of a second, right ? (mine can't)

Not really. If you have to round off a few tenths of a second it doesn't make a visible difference on your print. An F-stop timer is a great convenience because it does the math for you, but I started doing it with an old Gralab 300.

slm · Jul 23, 2013

nextreme said:
Its about 7:00am and I'm heading into the city for an early morning walk about photo shoot. Its very grey and overcast.

I don't know if this will make something difficult or easy to print, but I'll use something from this shoot for my next try. Maybe I can include a picture of the negative for opinions, and the print too.

Steven

Well there goes that plan - it started pouring rain, what a drag.

Shawn Dougherty · Jul 23, 2013

Michael R 1974 said:
My point is simply that assuming one does not go down too many rat holes and doesn't read too much nonsense, it isn't all that hard to make good negatives, while developing top notch printing skills, tools and techniques takes more practice, and really expands the arsenal of creative controls.

That's the truth. I wish I could go back in time and have a little talk with myself about just sticking with the process I started with (which was working) and learn it in and out, following standard practices that worked for many people for years... At least I have learned a thing or two along the way and (thank god) have become a better printer in that time as well. Printing is definitely where it's at.

Thomas Bertilsson · Jul 23, 2013

Shawn Dougherty said:
That's the truth. I wish I could go back in time and have a little talk with myself about just sticking with the process I started with (which was working) and learn it in and out, following standard practices that worked for many people for years... At least I have learned a thing or two along the way and (thank god) have become a better printer in that time as well. Printing is definitely where it's at.

I too think that the printing stage is truly where the magic happens. Of course the photograph has to be an interesting one to begin with, I'm not trying to rob the moment of framing the shot of its importance; I do think that is important obviously, but more of a base requirement and a foundation for producing the print. I love mulling over a test print in the darkroom, drawing up little 'print maps' to add or remove tone/contrast in areas where I feel it's needed, attempting to bring forward what I think is important with the photograph.
Every time I go into the darkroom I feel like I learn something of value, and become a slightly better printer with each session. Some negatives are better than others and print themselves almost, while others are much more of a challenge. To create something consistent from both good and mediocre negatives is a very interesting ride.

naeroscatu · Jul 23, 2013

After making a quick couple of prints last night and not getting what I wanted, I thought I'd ask this question:

What is the single (or few) techniques in darkroom printing that you feel you mastered, that took your print making to the next level ?

My prints last night needed some dodging and burning for sure, to make them "better", but they're a bit complicated for my current skill level, so I'm thinking its something I have to work on. Then I read about split grade printing, well maybe that's something I should try out, and then there's a device you can buy (Heiland ?) for this technique....

Interested in hearing about your eureka moments !

Steven, by all means I'm not new to film and printing but for reasons beyond my control I had to take shortcuts while keeping my hobby alive. Years ago scanning film and posting images came at a time when I could not afford a darkroom so my focus was to make best possible begatives in order to still have something acceptable to post in this forum. I don't feel sorry because I learned a lot about controlling my exposure testing film and film development. Then I was able to slowly build a darkroom in my basement, equipment was dumped by people switching to DX and everyting became affordable. I started making straight prints from my negatives. Despite the fact that my negatives were good I could never produce a print that I like, one that stands out.
It is hard to define what is a good print but you can tell immediately when you see one. I understood that I have to actually go to the source to make that step in quality that I needed for my prints: watch a master printer turning a mediocre negative into a piece of art was the turning point for me. I recently had the opportunity to take a printing workshop at the Elevator in Toronto held by Steve Sherman assisted by Tim Rudman. Bob Carnie also shared some of his approach in oprinting and tonning. All the comments made in this thread by many experienced people make so much sense now. All this theoretical information that you read in books and forums is good but it means very little if you don't put your hands in the mix. I just started and it takes me 3-4 hours and 6-8 sheets of paper to make a print that is worth looking at (I don't say good...). All hard work but let me tell you, I won't do anything else in my spare time. Good luck and show some of your results.

Bob Carnie · Jul 23, 2013

Hi Mihai

That was a different Tim, some here know him as climbabout... a very good printer indeed, but we did not bring Tim Rudman here.

hope you enjoyed the workshop.

Bob

naeroscatu · Jul 24, 2013

My Apologies, Bob. Sure, I meant to say Tim Jones.

Hal Reiser · Jul 25, 2013

All of these suggestion are excellent points most of which took me many years to learn.

The most important for me was several years ago discovering f-stop printing. It give me a method of consistent exposure control.

At the same time it also gave me a repeatable method for consistent burning and dodging times and by adding the use of different contrast filters to my burning and dodging enabled me to really improve my printing skills.

If you are interested in learning f-stop printing you do not need a special timer. Ralph Lambrecht's Darkroom Magic website has a f-stop printing times chart available as a downloadable pdf file.

Dead Link Removed

I printed several copies and had them laminated for use in my darkroom. I take the values off the chart and enter them into my timer.

baachitraka · Jul 25, 2013

F-stop printing is indeed fun, but then like any other printing methods it is require to have a good to very good negative. :-|

Bill Burk · Jan 2, 2015

When Dennis McNutt joined a thread regarding Bruce Barnbaum, I was reminded of this thread.

Something that surprises me, as I remember this thread clearly... I swear someone mentioned that "it was masking that took my printing to the next level".

I can't find that post in this thread, and wanted to revisit the subject because it's a technique worth recommending.

cliveh · Jan 2, 2015

Simplicity, practice to avoid dodge and burn and any contrast control with filtration. Just experiment with exposure variation.

Mainecoonmaniac · Jan 2, 2015

Hard work as Thomas said, find a mentor if you can, go see prints of famous photographers and take art classes.

NedL · Jan 2, 2015

Rick Jones · Jan 3, 2015

Best Advice I Ever Received: Carefully adjust your overall contrast before you even consider dodging and burning.

Path to better printing

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