Paterson plastic reels causing buckling?

vysk · Jan 6, 2013

I developed two 120 TriX films using the Paterson plastic reels (twist to wind film) and the films had what looked like buckling marks.

Is this typical?

Or did I do something wrong? Twist too hard to wind on the film?

I thought I was gentle, although I had to fight with one film to get it on the reel.

No issues with a third film that I developed using the standard steel reel.

...Vick

Worker 11811 · Jan 6, 2013

In my experience, plastic reels need to be clean and perfectly dry. If they are not, the film will stick and buckle as you try to load it on the reel.

Also, check the little ball bearings under the lips. If they are sticky, they can cause problems. Burrs on the edges of the reels can cause problems, too.

Other than that, check to see that your film isn't curled too much and that it goes on straight and true. This can be a problem with 120 film because of the width between the reel flanges.

rbultman · Jan 6, 2013

Same here. New to developing having developed about 15 rolls of 120 and 35mm. It seems like the little balls that support the ratcheting action get stuck. Obviously since I can't see what is going on I can't be sure. Anyone have any foolproof tips for using these reels that you could share with us fools?
Sent from my PI86100 using Board Express

tessar · Jan 6, 2013

After using I separate the reels into two pieces, rinse both out thoroughly in warm running water then leave the pieces to air-dry. I've never had trouble with buckling, with either 35mm or 120 film. I think what's important here is to keep guck from building up on the little balls. I bought the reels new and always cleaned them this way.
Also important is to make sure the reels are correctly loaded. If you feel any resistance at all, pull out the film carefully and re-load. The film has to advance smoothly and easily right up to the end.
I've always found steel reels difficult to load properly, but that's just me.

David Brown · Jan 6, 2013

rbultman said:
It seems like the little balls that support the ratcheting action get stuck. Obviously since I can't see what is going on I can't be sure. Anyone have any foolproof tips for using these reels that you could share with us fools?

Yes. As Randy said, they have to be perfectly clean and dry. And then you cannot force the film - it needs to feed easily. Both plastic and steel reels take practice. One is not better or worse than the other, they are different, but you have to learn and gain experience to load either one.

EDIT: Tessar and I hit the send button at the same time.

AgX · Jan 6, 2013

Or use the Jobo-type reels. Kind of "handmade" ratchet; no balls. Kind of fail-safe in this context.

ParkerSmithPhoto · Jan 6, 2013

Plastic reels are perfect for 35mm, not so much for 120. I greatly prefer the stainless steel reels for 120, and even then you need to be careful about where the film bends at the start, or you can easily leave a crescent mark on a good neg.

That being said, when using plastic, photo flo is great for drying, so after removing your negs from the PhotoFlo, don't rinse the reels, just shake them off really well and set them out to dry. If you need them again right away, use the hair dryer. Even the tiniest bit of water will cause mad stickage.

vysk · Jan 6, 2013

Thanks. I'm tossing the reels and going stainless steel reels. Never had an issue with stainless steel, and quite frankly, I find them easier to load.

pentaxuser · Jan 6, 2013

ParkerSmithPhoto said:
That being said, when using plastic, photo flo is great for drying, so after removing your negs from the PhotoFlo, don't rinse the reels, just shake them off really well and set them out to dry.

On other thread about film sticking every APUGer( you may be the exception that proves the rule) seems to say the opposite i.e, it is photo flo that is the culprit and you need to get rid of it by either taking the film off the reel for application of photo flo or vigorously clean the reels after subjecting them to photo flo

pentaxuser

bobwysiwyg · Jan 6, 2013

You probably did this, but it 's worth noting, the two starting points on the reels "must" be adjacent to one another. Even if off slightly, you 're going to have problems.

John Wiegerink · Jan 6, 2013

SS Reels

vysk said:
Thanks. I'm tossing the reels and going stainless steel reels. Never had an issue with stainless steel, and quite frankly, I find them easier to load.

Just remember that all SS reels are created equal. The best/easiest I have ever used and now own are HEWES reels made in England(at least I think they are still made there - CHINA?) Expensive, but worth every penny to me. JohnW

vysk · Jan 6, 2013

No, I didn't check that. Will that cause a problem, if the reel top and bottom aren't aligned after I finish loading the film?

Did I buckle the film during loading?

I know that I had to fight with one reel to get the film loaded, so I switched reels. The film loaded fine. Then back to the first reel, and loaded it with a new film, and went fine.

But both films showed buckles.

Not likely I'll chance using either reel again, but would be nice to know what happened.

...Vick

bobwysiwyg said:
You probably did this, but it 's worth noting, the two starting points on the reels "must" be adjacent to one another. Even if off slightly, you 're going to have problems.

Nige · Jan 6, 2013

vysk said:
Did I buckle the film during loading?

most likely... they don't send them out from the factory like that ;-)

One trick I find comes in handy is if the film doesn't want to load, take the paper backing off and load 'backwards'. Whatever you do, always make sure you have a 'fall-back' way of storing that unrolled film (eg another film tank or light proof container) that you can bung it in while you take a breather and exonerate any frustration a troublesome roll might give you, so you don't force it and add cresent moons to all your pictures! Murphy's Law says if you've thought of a backup plane, it you won't need it!

albada · Jan 7, 2013

John Wiegerink said:
Just remember that all SS reels are created equal. The best/easiest I have ever used and now own are HEWES reels made in England(at least I think they are still made there - CHINA?) Expensive, but worth every penny to me. JohnW

I'll +1 John's comment about Hewes.
I have no-name SS reels that I could not load even after 20 minutes of trying. Problem solved by switching to Hewes.
Yes, Hewes are made in England.

The problems I had were getting the film started on the reel. The cheapo reels like to buckle film instead of starting properly.

Mark Overton

250swb · Jan 7, 2013

I have been using Paterson plastic reels for nearly forty years. And like any piece of equipment used over a period like that you get to know its downsides as well as upsides. Starting again with something like stainless steel just means you start learning all over again, waiting for the fault, the slip, the cock up, because one day it will happen.

So what are the downsides of Paterson reels? Well, they need to be rinsed after using photoflo, or the balls and get gummed up. The upsides? They bounce.

Steve

R.Gould · Jan 7, 2013

I have never used anything other than Patterson reels in over 40 years of film developing, and have never had a problem, I don't go in for cleaning with old tooth brushes Etc or take the reels apart and wash them as I have so often read about here and other places, all I do is take a sharp pencil and run the point around the film spiral in the reels, it puts Graphite on the reels, and the fillm slides in without problems, I have yet to have a film buckled or damaged since I started using this method 39 years ago after being given this tip by another old photographer,I will also use my thumbs to help guide the film into the reel, and should it ever stick then a sharp tap on the work bench will clear it 99.9% of the time. The only time I ever had problems loading a film and damaging it was when a friend gave me a Hewes stainless Steel tank with reels for 120 and 35mm, and every film, no matter how much I tried, was buckled and damaged, the SS tank still sits on my shelf gathering dust and my collection of Patterson tanks are in daily use.
Richard

mfohl · Jan 7, 2013

I also have never had any problems with Paterson reels. If you're pitching your reels, pitch them my way. And soon I will have some SS reels for sale ...

limnidytis · Jan 7, 2013

The wide flange plastic reels are easier for 120. However, the Paterson will work, just more finicky. As others have said, be sure they're clean, dry. When you load the film, grab the end that and pull it at least 1/2 way around the reel. Just be careful not to pull it out of the track. If the film jams 1/2 way through loading some times pulling the sides apart while winding can free up the film. Fuji film can be more of a problem as I think the film base must be thinner and the balls don't grab it as well.

MichaelR · Jan 7, 2013

I used to have alot of problems with buckling when using Patterson reels, especially with 120 film until I started clipping a tiny bit of the front corners off the film (at about 45 degrees) before loading. The film no longer seems to snag and so it doesn't buckle when you twist the reels to load it forward. Also, for 120, I found that the Samigon reels (which fit as perfect replacements for the Patterson ones) are much easier to load correctly as there are tabs at the film entry that help in the initial alignment.
Michael

cliveh · Jan 7, 2013

R.Gould said:
all I do is take a sharp pencil and run the point around the film spiral in the reels, it puts Graphite on the reels, and the fillm slides in without problems, I have yet to have a film buckled or damaged since I started using this method 39 years ago Richard

+1

cmacd123 · Jan 7, 2013

For 120, the AP (arista, Sagamon, etc) "compact" reels have a wide "table" at the entrance to help guide the film. This is not on the "classic" reels. Both work with the Paterson tanks. As others have mentioned the 120 film is so thin that it can be hard to feed stright.

The Jobo 1500 reels are a bit less likly to stick than the paptersons, and because of the design you can guide the film with your fingers using the Deperssion in the side of the reel. They need the JOBO 1500 series tanks. Both have been out of production, but should be back in stores soon. They are more expensive.

Stainless is great to load if you hold your mouth just right. The world of Photography is equally divided between those who swear by them and those that swear at them. If you have the knack they will work wet or dry and load much quicker than any of the plastc reels.

Myself I used the JOBO for 35mm and the Compact AP reels in an old style paterson Tank for 120 as my first choice.

MattKing · Jan 7, 2013

To the OP:

Did you try practicing with the Paterson reels before you used them?

I use the AP/Samigon/Arista reels with the wider flanges for 120, either in an AP tank or a Paterson tank.

For 35mm I prefer steel reels, but am comfortable with either the AP or Paterson plastic reels.

I do check that the ball bearings move freely before I load each plastic reel.

Molli · Jan 7, 2013

I use Paterson reels for both 35mm and 120 film but, rather than ratcheting the film, I push it on - very easy, no buckling and no cursing

bobwysiwyg · Jan 8, 2013

Molli said:
I use Paterson reels for both 35mm and 120 film but, rather than ratcheting the film, I push it on - very easy, no buckling and no cursing

Likewise. However I 've never tried it with 120 yet. I find this works 100% of the time with 24 exp. 35mm, but bogs a bit toward the end of 36 exp. rolls and have to crank the last few frames.

John Wiegerink · Jan 9, 2013

I was not advocating or pushing SS reels and for many years I used a Paterson tank and adjustable ratchet reels. What I am advocating is that if you are going the SS route then make sure to spend a little more and try to get Hewes reels. I do mainly 120 and my film just seems to flow onto the reel. No joke! And no sweat drops on my film from struggling to get the damn thing loaded right. I used to end up with crescent half-moons from pinching/buckling and unprocessed spots from film sticking together. Not anymore! I also have the twin hook style 35mm Hewes reels, but I find them just a little harder for me. Of course it could be from me not doing 35mm very often. JohnW

Paterson plastic reels causing buckling?

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