Paterson film getting stuck

Jessestr · May 14, 2014

Hi all

I've been reeling lots of film last month, never had any troubles with it. But today suddenly the film got stuck when about 70-80% was reeled.. It felt like it was too long and I couldn't move the reel anymore (just a little).
So after trying and trying.. reversing sides.. cut a bit more of the negs it didn't work out and I cut the rest of the film so I had something to develop...

I took a roll and tried to reel it with the lights on to see what was wrong.. It got stuck again. So I took another reel.. Same problem.
Read about it on the internet and they say the reels should be dry.. So I dried them with a hair dryer... Oh it worked again.

But then after trying 20-25 times, about half or more of the times it gets stuck again... Always at 70-80% of the film is loaded (and is isn't of track). The bearings do move but it feels like I have to push harder to reel it (it's still reeling at that point). And when I do this it's like an enormous friction but it does reel... only not on the way how it should reel. If I finally reeled the film the last end pops out due to the stress of friction about where the ball bearings are...

Does anyone had this problem? I don't know what I'm doing wrong as it always worked the way I did.

cliveh · May 14, 2014

What you may try is to run a pencil lead around the spiral on both sides, as the graphite will lubricate the spiral. Also as you wind more film into the spiral you need smaller turns to make it progress. Hope this helps.

Jessestr · May 14, 2014

[video=youtube;cIPTGOvZpIU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIPTGOvZpIU[/video]

Made a video about it. When I wanted to show you guys it didn't fail like it always does but it happened at the end... The film starts to bend out the reel normally but now the end flips out.

Edit: Not sure where I can use the pencil? The film is between two vertical pieces of plastic..

Valerie · May 14, 2014

My students have this issue all the time. Although we have yet to figure out the exact problem, we try a variety of "tricks" that invariably get the film rolling again. First (which you already know) is to make sure the reel is completely dry. (I also suspect photo-flo residue could be an issue as students are not generally good at cleaning equipment). Second, clip the corners of the starting end of the film. The third thing we try is to remove the film entirely and start again (often from the opposite end).

Oh, and gremlins... our darkroom has gremlins. Usually they show up right before a major assignment is due and make a chore out of the simplest tasks. They ensure that film does not advance in the camera, that film does not roll onto reels, and that all the #2 filters we own go missing. Maybe they migrated your way....

pentaxuser · May 14, 2014

Is this the same reel that you always use?. If so I'd examine it very closely to check if there is something affecting the film's acceptance close to the centre, given that the problem only arises when 70-80% of the film has been inserted.

If you can see nothing in the way of damage that might be preventing the film from getting to the centre section then I'd immerse it in strong bleach for 24 hours to get it scrupulously clean then thoroughly rinse and dry it.

Try running a pencil's lead around the reel before inserting a fresh film. Finally make sure that you take the film off the reel before using photo-flo. Photo-flo residue can make the reel sticky.

I'd hope this will cure it but if it happens again then make sure you have a lightproof container nearby. Then unreel the film and place it in there so you can again clean the reel with the film in a safe place so none of is lost.

If this were to continue despite doing all of the above I'd consider getting rid of the offending reel and buying a new one.

pentaxuser

MattKing · May 14, 2014

Most likely the humidity where you are is higher than it was when you earlier had no problems.

When the air is humid, film is more likely to stick.

And if you are using a changing bag, the problem will be more difficult.

gone · May 14, 2014

I think it's Photo Flo residue too. You can't see it on the reels either, but if you take a hard bristled toothbrush and some detergent (after a little alcohol on the reels) and thoroughly scrub them in warm water, that should do it. I do the toothbrush/warm soapy water routine every time I develop film, and it has completely eliminated S.R.S. (sticky reel syndrome).

Also, when you're walking the film onto the reels, be careful not to unconsciously squeeze the two halves together. I have better results by only walking one reel and letting the other side remain still, rather than twisting them both at the same time.

Jessestr · May 14, 2014

Thanks for the tips. I'll try them out.

here's another video at the moment I feel friction I started recording... You can see that the films wants to move forward but it doesn't have enough room (that what it feels ans looks like) so the films is starting to go up ... and eventually it pops out

[video=youtube;mgsVaG8C5qU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgsVaG8C5qU[/video]

tony lockerbie · May 14, 2014

I used to strike this issue quite a lot, especially with 120 film. My cure is to use a hair dryer on the reel to get rid of all the moisture, even if you think it is dry,and I do this just before loading.
Like Valerie, I also clip the corners of the film before I load. BTW, I start the loading procedure on the 35mm films before I put them in the dark bag, just enough to clear the bearings, makes it easy and you know they are started correctly.
I have also heard that photo flow build up can be an issue, so I always rinse the reels well after I have finished with the wetting agent.

AgX · May 14, 2014

Glide withe a small strip of film along the inner part to locate any debris (of gelatin?)

Wash the reel with hot water. Alternatively dip it into sanitary tube declogger (alkaline version).

tony lockerbie · May 14, 2014

Actually, when I view your first video I can see that you have trimmed the leader halfway through the sprocket holes. Trim the end so that the cut is between the holes to give a smoother end, and clip the edges, a pair of nail clippers give a nice round finish. As i mentioned above, dry the reel well. The film will catch more the further it goes in because the bends get tighter and any moisture or rough catchy bits will cause the most problem there.

Jessestr · May 14, 2014

Cleaned on of the reels and it went well! The other one is still bad but I guess it's the photo-flo. I only started using it a few rolls ago.

AgX · May 14, 2014

Residues of Photo-Flo should be dissolved in the following processing run. Thus there would be no built up.
Using it in the right concentration there hardly would be enough to make a reel sticky if it would not have been rinsed after the last processing.

Nuff · May 14, 2014

I was having exactly the same issue and the pencil trick worked for me, problem was it had to be redone every 3-5 rolls of film. It was especially bad with 35mm film, since it is longer.

After a lot of frustration, I will just say that I have switched to stainless steel reel and never looked back. But if you decide to go that route, make sure you get higher quality reels and not some cheap chinese knock offs.

R.Gould · May 15, 2014

two answers to this problem,
1 before you start run a sharp pencil around the spire, in the groves used to load the film,
2 if the film gets stuck the very often a sharp tap of the reel on the work bench will free the film,
I would say the best is the pencil

Soeren · May 15, 2014

I cleaned my reels with a nailbrush, that did the trick too.
Now thats just part of the normal maintenance program once and a while

Xmas · May 15, 2014

yes long soak in hot sodium carbonate won't harm reel.

But could be humidity

Also reverse curl if the film goes under the take up spool.

But the simplest solution is to be real gentle with spiral and goooooooo rrrrrreeeeaaaalll sllloooow.

I load multi tanks in a dark bag and ocassionally a sticky one occurs in middle of a sequence of film.

dorff · May 15, 2014

Valerie said:
Second, clip the corners of the starting end of the film.

Careful when doing this. The tip of the film can climb out of the groove and stick into the next winding. Then you have a real problem. The best is to cut the leading edge perfectly flat, and between sprocket holes, not through them. There is no difference in the friction from flat or bevelled corners. The entire film causes the friction, not only the leading tip.

It is not only the reel that must be dry. The film must be perfectly dry, too. So make sure the learners are handling the film with gloves, or at the very least, very dry hands.

Any residual fixer, wetting agent or anything else for that matter will leave a spot that cannot dry. If the reel has been thoroughly washed and dried, it can be lubricated by using the pencil method described earlier. However, I have never needed this myself.

If you are rolling bulk film, be careful about loading too long. Two or three extra frames can make the difference between it fitting or not. But it won't cause a third of the film to stick out.

If after all of this a particular reel gives perennial problems, replace it with a new one. It might have a small crack or scratch that causes the film tip to snag, or something else that might be difficult to see. Or the inside of the groove has become simply too rough from over-use. Whatever the issue, a reel costs less than the time you are going to spend trying to extend its useful life by 10%.

EDIT: One more thing, as someone else mentioned, reverse curl. I never load film directly from the camera into the reel. Most cameras reverse the bend of the film, and it takes a good few hours rewound into the cartridge for the film to rediscover its inward curl. If you partially rewind with the leader sticking out, cut off the part that bends upwards (away from the emulsion side). Otherwise it will cause a lot of extra friction and may be impossible to coax into the reel. The best is a curl that is the same as the reel itself.

polka · May 15, 2014

From time to time, I put the reels in the dishwasher, together with plates, glasses, etc. Sometimes, I even wash this way the whole tank, dismounted.

Paul

StoneNYC · May 15, 2014

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/122989-REG/samigon_esa325_multi_format_autofeed_reel.html

Try using this type instead, I've always found this much easier...

Jessestr · May 15, 2014

I washed them with some detergent in very hot water.. let them soak, then scrubbed them and now it always works... No jamming, nothing stuck, just like new. Thanks for the tips! If it keeps happening I'll get some steel reels!

Nuff · May 15, 2014

Jessestr said:
I washed them with some detergent in very hot water.. let them soak, then scrubbed them and now it always works... No jamming, nothing stuck, just like new. Thanks for the tips! If it keeps happening I'll get some steel reels!

The only reason I got the steel reels, was because I'm lazy and I didn't want to do the preventive maintenance. Actually the real reason was that I put a stress mark into one of the negs when it got stuck and it was a keeper shot too. Kind of peeved me off and I got steel reels few second later.

Jim Noel · May 15, 2014

Photo Flo does two bad things:
1. It is a catalyst causing over-development along the edges
2. It sticks to the rels and over time causes them to become sticky.

The solution:
1. If you are using Photo Flo - stop and switch to LFN OR take the film off the reel prior to immersing in Photo-Flo
2. Scrub the reels with hot water - no soap - to rid the of PF

Jessestr · May 15, 2014

Mhm... I don't think photo-flo can develop a negative.. So I doubt it would over develop

StoneNYC · May 15, 2014

Jessestr said:
Mhm... I don't think photo-flo can develop a negative.. So I doubt it would over develop

Agreed,

Paterson film getting stuck

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