PaRodinal question(s)

Paul Verizzo · Oct 22, 2008

I'm making my first batch of PaRodinal (Why not call it Tylenol, yuk, yuk?)

The posted formula calls for 50 grams of sodium sulfite in only 250 ml of developer. Wow, I though, that seems like a lot. Sure enough, in my little 250 ml bottle I have about two teaspoons by eyeball sitting on the bottom. I even heated things up very hot in the micro to encourage dissolving. I'm on day two of the three day wait, FWIW.

The tablets I used, BTW, have 9% filler. Ten 500 mg tablets weighed 5.46 grams.

I've also read of different mixing orders and of leaving the SS out until the pills and lye have had a chance to comingle.

What say you?

marcsv · Oct 22, 2008

I dissolve the sodium hydroxide first then the sodium sulphite then the acetaminophen, usually results in little to no sediment but because of the fillers you may see particles suspended in the solution. No discernible processed film differences with a batch mixed the usual way.

Alan Johnson · Oct 23, 2008

I read the theory on p2 of the following thread that the presence of crystals is is only useful during preparation.Wanting a solution clear of tablet filler debris,I filtered my PaRodinal made from tablets through cotton wool after 72 hrs, heating it first.The cotton wool clogged up and had to be changed frequently.
I now have a clear concentrate solution but new crystals have appeared at the bottom of it.
www.apug.org/forums/forum37/32500-clean-clear-parodinal.html

Ken Nadvornick · Oct 23, 2008

Here's a somewhat different approach I tried when I played with this a while back.

Also looking to remove the inert filler material, I first dissolved the tablets in a measured container of methanol. Once dissolved, I then set the closed container aside for a couple of days until gravity did its job and the filler settled out nicely. Using a syringe designed for livestock (available over the counter, I use them for measuring regular Rodinal), I removed sufficient clear liquid to satisy the recipe and placed the liquid into its final storage bottle. I then set this bottle outside and let the methanol evaporate completely until all that remained was the proper amount of crystallized acetaminophen.

At this point in a second container I prepared the sodium hydroxide solution, then added the sodium sulfite. When all was ready, I simply poured the hydroxide/sulfite solution into the bottle containing the acetaminophen and shook it up. I seem to remember it taking a bit of time for the acetaminophen to dissolve, and I may have applied some heat to help the process along. But it eventually did and I saw the distinctive pinkish color form.

While admittedly time-consuming, the result was a perfectly pinkish-clear batch of paRodinal.

Ken

Fanshaw · Oct 24, 2008

I have made several batches of this developer with various amounts of sulphite. I think that 50g sodium sulphite per 250ml is excessive. I made some with only 10g/250ml in October 2006 and it is still working normally after storage in a partly filled brown screw top bottle.

Fanshaw · Oct 24, 2008

I meant to add that I find the inert filler soon settles to the bottom of the bottle to form a hard deposit, leaving a clear liquid, so I no longer bother to filter it.

Paul Verizzo · Oct 24, 2008

Alan Johnson said:
I read the theory on p2 of the following thread that the presence of crystals is is only useful during preparation.Wanting a solution clear of tablet filler debris,I filtered my PaRodinal made from tablets through cotton wool after 72 hrs, heating it first.The cotton wool clogged up and had to be changed frequently.
I now have a clear concentrate solution but new crystals have appeared at the bottom of it.
www.apug.org/forums/forum37/32500-clean-clear-parodinal.html

That was one of my sources before I mixed up the soup. Thanks.

Paul Verizzo · Oct 24, 2008

Thanks for all the observations, guys.

I'm going to filter the stuff just on general principles and then try it next week.

At least if I want to make it over, it's incredibly cheap.

Paul Verizzo · Oct 25, 2008

At the end of five days, here is where I'm at. More of the sulfite dissolved, but still not all.

I decided to filter the fiber crud and last sulfite out. I did my usually coffee filter thing. The longer the stuff was exposed to the air, the darker it became. Fast. Maxed out in about a half day. So now I have very dark brown but un-cruddy Parodinal that I hope to try next week.

I think next time I will go the alcohol solution route and avoid the crud. And use less, maybe 30g sulfite.

GrantR · Nov 19, 2008

So--I don't have any Sodium Sulfite lying around...is it possible to just use Hypo wash? The Hypo wash that I have also contains Sodium Sulfate.

Alan Johnson · Nov 19, 2008

If it's like Kodak Hypo Clear and the formula given is correct it would appear OK:
http://www.freelists.org/post/pure-...k-Wash-Aid-Patent-Re-FORMULA-KODAK-HYPO-CLEAR
50g contains 37.8g sodium sulfite and 9.47g sodium metabisulfite,which reacts with 4g sodium hydroxide to give more sulfite.This leaves 16g sodium hydroxide of which only 8g is required to react with Paracetamol/Tylenol so you end up with about 8g spare sodium hydroxide instead of 12g in Donald Qualls formula.Check msds sodium hydroxide,it's seriously hazardous.

Paul Verizzo · Nov 19, 2008

Update: I finally tried my brown parodinal. Very faint images. When I get around to it, I will try a new batch with the following changes: fifty tabs instead of thirty. Pulverize first and then dissolve in water. Filter out the cellulistic crap. Then put in the high pH solution.

gainer · Nov 20, 2008

Alan Johnson said:
If it's like Kodak Hypo Clear and the formula given is correct it would appear OK:
http://www.freelists.org/post/pure-...k-Wash-Aid-Patent-Re-FORMULA-KODAK-HYPO-CLEAR
50g contains 37.8g sodium sulfite and 9.47g sodium metabisulfite,which reacts with 4g sodium hydroxide to give more sulfite.This leaves 16g sodium hydroxide of which only 8g is required to react with Paracetamol/Tylenol so you end up with about 8g spare sodium hydroxide instead of 12g in Donald Qualls formula.Check msds sodium hydroxide,it's seriously hazardous.

In spite of which my grandmother made her own laundry soap from lard and lye. Before her time the lye was probably home made as well.

Paul Verizzo · Nov 20, 2008

gainer said:
In spite of which my grandmother made her own laundry soap from lard and lye. Before her time the lye was probably home made as well.

Didn't it come from fireplace ashes?

michaelbsc · Nov 20, 2008

Paul Verizzo said:
gainer said:

In spite of which my grandmother made her own laundry soap from lard and lye. Before her time the lye was probably home made as well.

Click to expand...

Didn't it come from fireplace ashes?

Yes, that's exactly how my grandmother used to do it before "box lye" became readily available in stores. You "drip the (fire) pot ashes" to get the lye, which is otherwise know as Pot-ash, potassium. That's how the English word got so distant from Kalium, where the K symbol comes from.

Actually it isn't hard to do at all. But you do need a source of fireplace ashes. Not too hard for people in cold climates since most houses have a fireplace if just for nostalga instead of primary heat. But for those of us in warmer climates, who don't need a fireplace to cook and would get driven outside by the heat if you tried to have a romantic fire, we don't have much of a ready supply of ashes.

MB

neelin · Dec 11, 2008

Alan Johnson said:
If it's like Kodak Hypo Clear and the formula given is correct it would appear OK:
http://www.freelists.org/post/pure-...k-Wash-Aid-Patent-Re-FORMULA-KODAK-HYPO-CLEAR
50g contains 37.8g sodium sulfite and 9.47g sodium metabisulfite,which reacts with 4g sodium hydroxide to give more sulfite.This leaves 16g sodium hydroxide of which only 8g is required to react with Paracetamol/Tylenol so you end up with about 8g spare sodium hydroxide instead of 12g in Donald Qualls formula.Check msds sodium hydroxide,it's seriously hazardous.

I've only got Sodium Metabisulfite, are you saying approx. 2:1 Sodium metabisulfite/sodium hydroxide is generating sodium sulfite?

robert

Alan Johnson · Dec 12, 2008

Na2S2O5 +2NaOH -> 2Na2SO3 +H2O
190.1+.....80.......-> 2x 126.04 +...
37.7 +......15.9....-> 50
37.7g sodium metabisulfite + 15.9 g sodium hydroxide makes the 50 g sodium sulfite called for in the Parodinal formula.

wogster · Dec 12, 2008

michaelbsc said:
Yes, that's exactly how my grandmother used to do it before "box lye" became readily available in stores. You "drip the (fire) pot ashes" to get the lye, which is otherwise know as Pot-ash, potassium. That's how the English word got so distant from Kalium, where the K symbol comes from.

Actually it isn't hard to do at all. But you do need a source of fireplace ashes. Not too hard for people in cold climates since most houses have a fireplace if just for nostalga instead of primary heat. But for those of us in warmer climates, who don't need a fireplace to cook and would get driven outside by the heat if you tried to have a romantic fire, we don't have much of a ready supply of ashes.

MB

My mother grew up in a place where they used wood fired stoves, they actually had two kitchens, the kitchen was in the house, and the stove provided the majority of the heat for the house. However this doesn't work so well in summer, so they actually had a small building next to the house, joined by a covered walkway, this small building had another wood stove, it was called the summer kitchen, it could be hotter then hades in that little building, but nobody stayed there for very long.... Even in winter though, if you needed extra cooking capacity, you could use the "summer" kitchen.....

Lots of ashes, summer or winter....

eli griggs · Dec 13, 2008

Here is a page on lye making.
http://www.wikihow.com/Make-Lye

Some old family members, who made soap, always made lye out of Oaks ashes only.

Cheers

gainer · Dec 13, 2008

Garden shops sell slaked lime which is calcium hydroxide. That plus sodium carbonate and water makes sodium hydroxide plus calcium carbonate. The carbonate settles out and the strength of the sodium hydroxide solution that you can decant depends on the amount of water. Some of the hydroxide solution remains in the wet calcium carbonate. If you use potessium carbonate, you get potassium hydroxide. Calcium carbonate is limestone, so if you let it settle too long you will have a limestone bottom in your container.

John LeBlanc · Sep 9, 2010

I tried it and goofed, need advice.

i tried Neelin's parodinal recipe using metabisulfite and a bit more NaOH to adjust for it. The mistake I made is that I dissolved most of the NaOH and all the acetaminophen powder (from a compounding pharmacy) in 60ml water (recipe was adjusted to make 100ml total). I dissolved the rest of the NAOH and the metabisulfite in 40ml of water, added them together and of course ended up with about 120ml of nice clear slightly pinkish liquid. When I got to use it, I'm thinking I should use 1:80 or 1:40 or 1:20 ratios instead of the 1:100, 1:50 or 1:25 due to the slightly lower concentration, but I don't trust my math. does this sound right, or should I go with a slightly different amount?

Gerald C Koch · Sep 10, 2010

If the recipe said it made 100 ml and you accidently wound up with 120 ml then you need to use more concentrate when diluting. So, as an exaample, instead of diluting 1:25 you need to dilute 1.2 parts of concentrate with 24.8 parts of water.

But I have to ask why bother with this developer? Is it curiousity or need? I mean no offense, but the difficulty that you experienced points out that most people should stick with what is commercially available. Less work and more predictable results.

John LeBlanc · Sep 11, 2010

Gerald C Koch said:
...instead of diluting 1:25 you need to dilute 1.2 parts of concentrate with 24.8 parts of water.

But I have to ask why bother with this developer? Is it curiousity or need? I mean no offense, but the difficulty that you experienced points out that most people should stick with what is commercially available. Less work and more predictable results.

That's just what I needed to know, thanks! As for why, I would have to either drive 5 hours or pay twice the cost of the Rodinal in shipping to get more. Itls cheap, and much more readilly available than the commercial product, and I get to play mad scientist. Really, if the commercial product was available at a reasonable cost and convenience, I still might do this out of curiosity. I had to order fixer in, but that's powder. My local shops carry D76, but 6 month shelf life is not good for my occasional use.

Gerald C Koch · Sep 14, 2010

The formula given below produces a developer which is very like Rodinal in its action. If you have access to a balance and the common photographic chemicals that it requires I would highly recommend it. I originally posted it to the formulas section but have recopied it here for convenience. Metol is a substituted aminophenol like acetominaphen and has many of the properties of paraminophenol. Anderson found that a large portion of the metol could be substituted with hydroquinone without effecting the Rodinal like character of the developer.

Not only are there many recipes for Rodinal like developers there are several which use Metol and hydroquinone. Both these developing agents form phenolates with hydroxides just like paraminophenol. The following recipe which appeared in the Dignan Newletter is based on one from 1917 when Rodinal was hard to obtain because of WWI. The original formula was sold commercially in 1917 and was published by the author Paul L. Anderson in his book The Technique of Pictorial Photography", J. B. Lippincott, 1939.

Kalogen

Distilled water (50°C) .................. 750 ml
Metol ....................................... 13.5 g
Sodium sulfite (anhy) ................... 180 g
Hydroquinone ............................ 53.0 g
Sodium hydroxide ........................ 35.0 g
Potassium bromide ....................... 5.0 g
Benzotriazole, 1% ....................... 80.0 ml
Distilled water to make ................. 1.0 l

Dissolve the ingredients in order. When the hydroquinone is added a heavy white precipitate will form which will dissolve when the hydroxide is added.

Dilute 1+49, average development time is 5 minutes at 20C.
This developer has a very long shelf life of at least 4 years in fully filled bottles.

Like Rodinal this is not a fine grain film developer but the grain is crisp and pleasing.

PaRodinal question(s)

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