Paper

redbandit

Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2022
Messages
440
Location
USA
Format
35mm
is there any damned reason companies cant put the emulsion side of each sheet of paper in the same orientation? im just tired of wasting paper because i cant tell what side has the emulsion on it


and dont go into the "with the curve" crap, im using two brands of paper, and each is curved the same direction in the package, and im getting emulsion on either side.

i mean i take the sheet out of the package, FOLD a corner down, put the corner a certain way on the enlarger, then put the folded corner into the cibachrome tube a specific way and half the time the only image will be bits and pieces of black spots ON THE WRONG side of the paper,

ie upon the bottom side that was put to the outside of the tube.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

mshchem

Subscriber
Joined
Nov 26, 2007
Messages
14,778
Location
Iowa City, Iowa USA
Format
Medium Format
RC paper that's glossy is the easiest to tell. The emulsion side is a bit stickier, but if you actually stick your finger to the emulsion side you'll leave a mark.
If I was learning I would get a box of glossy paper.

The older fiber base papers will curl towards the emulsion side.
 

mshchem

Subscriber
Joined
Nov 26, 2007
Messages
14,778
Location
Iowa City, Iowa USA
Format
Medium Format
Get some trays and turn out the room lights, use a safelight. It takes 10 minutes for your eyes to adjust to working under a safelight. Once your eyes adjust makes things much easier.
 

MattKing

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Apr 24, 2005
Messages
53,251
Location
Delta, BC Canada
Format
Medium Format
With all the black and white papers I use I can see which side has the emulsion on it - due to the difference in sheen. I have good safelight illumination.
When I used to print colour, I could tell by touch.
 

albada

Subscriber
Joined
Apr 10, 2008
Messages
2,175
Location
Escondido, C
Format
35mm RF
MattKing said:
With all the black and white papers I use I can see which side has the emulsion on it - due to the difference in sheen. I have good safelight illumination.
When I used to print colour, I could tell by touch.
Click to expand...

With Ilford and Foma RC papers, I can tell by listening as I gently rub my finger across it: The emulsion side is silent because it's smooth, and the rougher back side makes a sound. I always rub both sides to be certain I'm not printing on the wrong side (again).
 

GregY

Member
Joined
Apr 12, 2005
Messages
3,503
Location
Alberta
Format
Large Format
I use 99% fiber based bw paper....always curved toward the emulsion side.
 

nmp

Member
Joined
Jan 20, 2005
Messages
2,032
Location
Maryland USA
Format
35mm
I thought they put a dummy piece of paper or cardbord on the emulsion side in the pack so when you grab a sheet from the other side, you always come in contact with the back side and not the emulsion side. That's not true any more? Been a while I did silver gelatin.

:Niranjan.
 

snusmumriken

Subscriber
Joined
Jul 22, 2021
Messages
2,525
Location
Salisbury, UK
Format
35mm
What brand are you using? I have never come across a box or packet of paper that had mixed orientation.

Nevertheless, now I think about it, I realise that I do sub-consciously check every sheet as I put it into the enlarging easel. I have clocked up a few years of practice, and it is second-nature now.

Maybe practice 'blindfold' with spoiled sheets after drying them flat, or sacrifice a new sheet? You should suddenly find you are scoring 100%, not 50%.
 

pentaxuser

Member
Joined
May 9, 2005
Messages
20,016
Location
Daventry, No
Format
35mm
redbandit said:
is there any damned reason companies cant put the emulsion side of each sheet of paper in the same orientation? im just tired of wasting paper because i cant tell what side has the emulsion on it
Click to expand...
So just to be clear: In any box of papers you have opened of any make of papers you find that that the stack of paper are randomly stacked so that say sheets 1-3 is emulsion side up then 4-10 is emulsion down then up etc?

I have only ever seen the Ilford paper packers at work and for obvious reasons all the paper is delivered to their packing station the same way up and then packed that way. This clearly makes the packing easier.

In 17 years of opening and using photo papers I have never come across the kind of misorientation that you describe

Assuming you are the exception to the rule and have received a misorientated pack then what do you think is the best course of action?

Thanks

pentaxuser
 
Last edited by a moderator:
OP
OP

redbandit

Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2022
Messages
440
Location
USA
Format
35mm
i havent used ilford paper in 8-9 months so cant remember how that was packed but in the last 2 weeks i have used inkpress multi tone and Arista Edu papers.

The inkpress 5x7 sheets, i have had a few in the package that when i pulled them out, put them in the easel and exposed, and then placed with the exposed surface into the INSIDE empty space of my cibachrome tube, i had the image side facing the inside wall surface. IE image was on what was "the bottom" of the paper when it was in the easel.
DID have a cardboard sheet.

I have been doing test strips with the Arista 8x10 paper. The first sheet i pulled out, NO CARDBOARD IN PACKAGE THAT I CAN FIND.. i put into my nifty-less paper cutter and chopped it into 3 strips. i kept the paper orientation the same as it was in the package as i transferred it to the paper cutter, and then to the plastic envelope and to the easel.
The first set came out fine.

Except the "the bird was facing right in the image the lens projected on my easel, so why is the bird facing LEFT in the developed test sheet?"


after the first sheet, i have gone through 4 sheets . 2 were directly after the first sheet that was good, ie first sheet that was good was sheet one, the first two bad ones were sheet 2 and 3 in the package. then i pulled the bottom most sheet, and one randomly.

These have been crap. I have marked the corners, kept the sheet the same as it was in the plastic envelope. But i have been getting nothing but skunk ass results. When i chopp up 4 sheets of 8x10, and each section turns out to have small amounts of black image on what is supposed to have been THE BOTTOM SURFACE OF THE SHEET WHEN IT WAS IN THE EASEL BEING EXPOSED TO MY ENLARGER...

I start thinking i should just give up.

I can BARELY feel the tiny locator dots on my keyboard. I have to turn the on/off switch on my digital camera on with my finger nail because i really cant feet it with my finger tips.
 

btaylor

Subscriber
Joined
Dec 28, 2010
Messages
2,257
Location
Los Angeles
Format
Large Format
Whenever I had a question of paper orientation I would first look at it at an angle towards the safelight to see the texture of both sides. If that was iffy, a touch of my tongue to a finger and then touching the edge of the paper with said finger would figure it out. The sticky side is the emulsion side.
 

koraks

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Nov 29, 2018
Messages
23,431
Location
Europe
Format
Multi Format
redbandit said:
Except the "the bird was facing right in the image the lens projected on my easel, so why is the bird facing LEFT in the developed test sheet?"
Click to expand...

That one remains a mystery as it cannot be due to having the paper upside down on the baseboard during exposure.

redbandit said:
When i chopp up 4 sheets of 8x10, and each section turns out to have small amounts of black image on what is supposed to have been THE BOTTOM SURFACE OF THE SHEET WHEN IT WAS IN THE EASEL BEING EXPOSED TO MY ENLARGER...
Click to expand...
And on the opposite side: nothing at all, I assume?
Sounds like you exposed these with the emulsion facing down. You then typically get only small parts of the scene (deepest shadows), usually quite blurry as well.

In your workflow where you're cutting sheets into strips, it's easy to make a mistake and flip one or more strips upside down. Happens to all of us, I suppose (certainly happens to me occasionally). I always make sure to store cut strips emulsion-down inside the box, underneath the bag with uncut paper. Always. Standardizing this way helps to prevent the problem (mostly).

I always identify the emulsion side by either surface sheen or curve. Curve works well for fiber-based papers, which will curve inward towards the emulsion. Sheen works better with RC papers. Glossy RC papers will show a distinct difference in surface sheen between the backside and emulsion side, with the emulsion side being more shiny. Matte RC papers are the hardest to figure out as the surface sheen is similar between both sides, but with some practice, it's also possible to identify these correctly.
The sticky tongue touch trick suggested by @btaylor I also use, but doesn't work too well with RC paper in my experience. It works nicely on fiber based enlarging papers as well as materials like Fixxons inkjet transparencies... Of course, licking photographic materials is one of those "try at your own risk / be sensible about it" kind of things.
 

pentaxuser

Member
Joined
May 9, 2005
Messages
20,016
Location
Daventry, No
Format
35mm

Well with this litany of apparently insoluble problems in all of your threads, I must admit that just giving up is an option that I think even an optimist would consider. Not being that much of an optimist myself, it is certainly an option that would have crossed my mind

Incidentally the problem that I thought you had was that of not being sure if the surface which was facing the projected image was the backside of the paper or the emulsion side and that was what I was trying to respond to,. However your reply seemed to mention other issues


pentaxuser

pentaxuser
 

xkaes

Subscriber
Joined
Mar 25, 2006
Messages
4,798
Location
Colorado
Format
Multi Format
Whenever I open a new box of paper, I always test the first sheet -- or at least a part of it, if it's BIG paper. As a result, I also know what side has the emulsion. Then I mark the outside of the box "EMULSION THIS SIDE" in LARGE BOLD LETTERS.
 

NB23

Member
Joined
Jul 26, 2009
Messages
4,307
Format
35mm
Happens that only the first is opposite side.
And sometimes half-half.

But I don’t remember which kind.
 

faberryman

Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2016
Messages
6,048
Location
Wherever
Format
Multi Format
I can understand your frustration. If you are processing your prints in a tube, your have to develop, stop, fix, and wash (unless you have a wash tray) before you take the print out of the tube, only to find out you exposed the wrong side of the paper. So there's 6-8-10 minutes down the drain. If you were processing in trays, you would know your error pretty quickly. I remember a similar frustration when doing Cibachrome prints, where I would have to go through that rigamarole only to find I needed a slight filter change.

To avoid frustration, take your time and be more careful in putting the emulsion side of the paper up in the easel.
 
Last edited:

Vaughn

Subscriber
Joined
Dec 13, 2006
Messages
10,121
Location
Humboldt Co.
Format
Large Format
Sounds like operator error blamed on others.

Tighten up your paper-handling procedure.
 

Sirius Glass

Subscriber
Joined
Jan 18, 2007
Messages
50,411
Location
Southern California
Format
Multi Format

  1. No one but you want it.
  2. One side of the paper is slightly smoother and that is the side to place up in the easel.
  3. One side of the paper is slightly shiny and that is the side to place up in the easel.
  4. When you put down sod always remember "Green side up".
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Vaughn

Subscriber
Joined
Dec 13, 2006
Messages
10,121
Location
Humboldt Co.
Format
Large Format
Sirius Glass said:
...
When you put down sod always remember "Green side up".
Click to expand...

I've planted 50,000 trees or so (give or take 10,000...I wasn't keeping very good track), and that was the first rule -- the other is no J-roots!
 
OP
OP

redbandit

Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2022
Messages
440
Location
USA
Format
35mm
xkaes said:
Whenever I open a new box of paper, I always test the first sheet -- or at least a part of it, if it's BIG paper. As a result, I also know what side has the emulsion. Then I mark the outside of the box "EMULSION THIS SIDE" in LARGE BOLD LETTERS.
Click to expand...

the arista paper im using, i opened the factory seal on the cardboard envelope, pulled the plastic envelope out, saw that the end was bent over on the top and taped on the top, opened it, pulled a sheet out, and placed it on the paper cutter with the same exact side UP.. sliced it, those came out with the top side being the emulsion.

then i open the package again, pull the next two sheets out, making sure the taped end IS ON THE TOP AGAIN WHEN REMOVING SHEETS, and they are crappers with only the 20+ second sections showing ANY sort of darkness on the side that ended up being developed as "the bottom of the sheet without emulsion"

I know i stopped using my enlarger long enough to forget where the power button on my dichro head was.. but i still remembered where the enlarger lens was.

Yeah i use a cibachrome tube for developing,. i tried the tray developing but using the cibachrome tube makes sure i get the MINIMUM times for paper developr and fixer.

Also using the tube means that I dont have to worry about anyone "helping" me by pouring fixer in my developer bath, etc. And I had that happen to me.
 

koraks

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Nov 29, 2018
Messages
23,431
Location
Europe
Format
Multi Format
redbandit said:
using the cibachrome tube makes sure i get the MINIMUM times for paper developr and fixer.
Click to expand...

I don't follow - you're using drums because you want the process to be as fast as possible, or because you'd be impatient with trays and pull the prints early from e.g. the developer?
Anyway, I virtually only use trays for B&W and depending on paper and developer, my development times are around a minute. Yes, also for fiber based. Just mix the developer a little stronger. I'm very sure I wouldn't gain one second by using drums - probably the opposite.

As to your paper mishaps - @Vaughn formulated a little bluntly, but he's right. Just step up your game. I don't think anyone can help you work consistently other than through the kind of tips you've been given.

Have you stopped to think about why you're running into all these issues all the time? In your place, I'd be curious for a possible root cause.
For instance, I know that about 80% of the mistakes I make are because I'm impatient. So I've learned that if it needs to be done right, I need to slow down for a bit and be patient. Otherwise silly little errors creep up on me. I learned this the hard way and by reflecting on what went wrong. It might be useful to do the same.
 
OP
OP

redbandit

Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2022
Messages
440
Location
USA
Format
35mm
using tubes isnt about time at all. its about space. I have no space for trays
 

snusmumriken

Subscriber
Joined
Jul 22, 2021
Messages
2,525
Location
Salisbury, UK
Format
35mm
redbandit said:
I can BARELY feel the tiny locator dots on my keyboard. I have to turn the on/off switch on my digital camera on with my finger nail because i really cant feet it with my finger tips.
Click to expand...

I can appreciate how that would be a handicap. But start with the assumption that paper manufacturers honestly sell you a stack of paper that is all oriented the same way. Systematically (by exposing half sheets both ways up) work out which way your stack is oriented, and keep it that way. Problem solved. No need to give up. This is supposed to be a fun activity.
 

pentaxuser

Member
Joined
May 9, 2005
Messages
20,016
Location
Daventry, No
Format
35mm
redbandit said:
using tubes isnt about time at all. its about space. I have no space for trays
Click to expand...

Is this in addition to avoiding the danger of anyone "helping" by pouring fixer into your developer bath? Are there other users of your darkroom there at the same time who also have use of the developer and fixer and even if there are, why are they likely to pour fixer into your developer bath. Is this their honest stupidity and if so wouldn't this affect them unless they use different trays or is there something more sinister at work such as they have something against you and that why "helping" you is something you have put in inverted commas?

If space is so restricted that you have no space for trays, why are there others in the darkroom at the same time taking up what little space already exists

I am completely puzzled

pentaxuser
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Menu
Log in
Register
Cookies are required to use this site. You must accept them to continue using the site. Learn more…