Paper to start with

Dear all,

I'm going to set up a darkroom soon, but I've just a little experience with film developing
in my bathroom. As any other penniless student around the world, my biggest concern
is to keep costs down, at least while taking confidence with the overall printing process.

I was thinking about the Ilford RC Multigrade IV paper because it's a well-known, reliable
paper, and it is also widespread, so I may find it in my town, too. However, in the 24x30
cm size, that I'd use for contact prints, it's expensive compared to the Fomaspeed
(graded), the Fomaspeed Variant, and the Efke Varicon. I'm very tempted by this
Efke Varicon, a 10-sheet pack costs 5,30 Euros, while a 10-sheet pack of Ilford costs
10,90 Euros. Of course, I don't expect too much quality from such paper, but do you
think it can be a viable option to start with?

For the first enlargements, I'm thinking about 10x15 cm sheets. It's a very small format,
but, once again, I prefer to save some money. This time, there is a little cost difference
between the Ilford and its cheaper competitors. Fomaspeed costs 13,40 Euros per 100
sheets, Fomaspeed Variant costs 13,20, and Ilford 16,10 Euros. I'd use these
little sheets to get some experience, and then move to 13x18 cm sheets. Do you
think it's better to use the Foma papers (graded or multigrade) and save a little, or
to go with the Ilford?

I've been told to use glossy surface paper, but I cannot remember why. Can you give
me some advice on that?

Thank you very much for your help,
Marco

Marco plenty of people like the Efke and Foma papers. Which you should choose depends on what you like. If fresh and hopefully defect free I'd expect any paper to work fine.

It rarely makes sense to buy 10 sheets of paper. Worse if you're just starting out and learning. Better to buy a bigger box and stick with the one paper then to try 10 sheets of this and 10 sheets of that. Plus 10 sheet packs tend to cost more per sheet then the bigger packs.

Glossy/matt depends on what you like. I personally like matt better.

With VC paper you can adjust the paper grade with filters. Saves you buying multiple grades of paper.

Thank you for your fast reply, Nick.

I don't know what I like, just because I've never printed anything, neither I know anyone
who prints its own b/w photos. I'm unsure if it's better to start with well-known qualilty
papers such as the Ilfords, or to rely on (perhaps) lower quality papers such as Efke or
Foma. I don't know if my statement (Ilford = higher quality, Foma/Efke = lower quality)
is true, too. If you say that it doesn't matter too much what paper I use to learn, then
I'm going with the cheapests

Ok, I understand that 10 sheets are very few. For the 10x15 cm format, I'd buy the
100 sheets pack. For the 24x30 cm format, the retailer I rely on doesn't have bigger
packs of Efke Varicon; it has the 25 and 50 sheets packs of Fomaspeed Variant and
the 50 sheets pack of Ilford Multigrade. Still, 5 packs of Efke with 10 sheets each are
the cheapest option.

I like matt surfaces more, too. If I remember correctly I've been told that the glossy
papers are better to learn. However I don't remember why.

Thank you again,
Marco

I cannot think of a compelling reason that glossy papers would be easier to learn with than any other. They are slightly sharper, perhaps that is the reason behind what you have been told. However, if a matt surface is what you like, there is no better reason to make that your choice.
In terms of quality, I expect that Ilford is probably better for consistancy, which is important while you are learning, because it makes it easier to track down the cause of any mistakes you make. You could also make the argument that lower cost paper allows you to make more prints, and thus achieve more learning. I recommend you try both and see what you like best. Whichever one you find easier to use with prints you like will be the best for learning.

Ilford=good, Foma or EFKE=bad is not quite true. All are good, there is more difference in "look" than in quality. What makes Ilford (and I am user of Ilford) better than EFKE for example is consistency. With Ilford you allways get same quality. With EFKE you most of the time get good quality, and then you can have bad luck and get bad paper. Quality control of Ilford is better than EFKE. But, in mine several years of EFKE using, I didn't have problems.

If you search this forum you will find next. People who love EFKE really love them. They say there is no other paper with same "look". And that worths for every paper, people who use one paper claim there is nothing better. That also tells there is no "good or bad" paper, just paper you prefer (or can afford, some are more expencive than others)

So, whatever paper you try of mentioned (to be honest, I don't know for Foma, I use Ilford, and was using EFKE) you won't be wrong. That lead to next, you should try for start papers you can most easily to find. For example if you have in some near shop Ilford, and must order EFKE, Ilford would be paper for start with, because ordering EFKE will make its cost higher. Or vice versa. When you get more experience and more money, then you will find other sources and procedures for getting material. For example, for me, I must order everything from other countries.

10 sheets pack for sizes up to 20x25 format is little. And, it is cheaper to buy 1 pack of 100 sheets than 10 packs of 10 sheets (of course, if you can afford atonce to buy 1 pack of 100 sheets)

As I know 24x30cm and bigger papers come from manufacturer in packs of 50 sheets or less (25 or 10 sheets), so you have to deal with that.

Gloss or matt: It is again matter of preference, but, they say gloss surface gives better details especially for contact sheets and are better for begginers. I personally more love matt, my first paper was EFKE 18x24cm matt FB grade 3 paper. People use gloss papers more, so it can be difficult to find matt. For example, I ordered same paper in few sizes and in gloss and matt surface. My seller had all papers in gloss, and must particulary for me to order (so I must wait) end of november for matt papers. But, that is life, so get used to it and "don't panic"

About formats: For me 13x18 size iz "smallest serious" size. 10x15 I use only as proof prints, that is when make contact copy, and can't decide, then I make some prints on 10x15 and after looking at them I decide will I make prints on "real" size paper . I usually work on 20x25 for my portfolio book (to carry and showing around) and 24x30 for display, but I will go to 30x40 for display as I now have technical possibility to do that.

Plastic (RC) of "real paper" (FB). RC is cheaper, easier to handle for beggining (less time and easier for washing/drying and processing), give good quality prints, and FB is considered as paper for serious printing, for artists, professionals and for archiving (they say it last longer than RC). It is again question of what you like more, and money. After EFKE FB was unavailable for me ot one point, I used RC for years and again starting to use FB, this time Ilford.

Good luck.

As was said previously, each brand of paper has a particular "look". As far as surface texture goes there is also semi-matt - my preference for general subjects and hand coloring - a sort of compromise. I prefer glossy papers for glossy subjects and never liked the look of strictly matt surfaces. For me, it is also important how the paper responds to toning.

Ilford never made a paper that satisfied my needs in terms of surface texture and tone, therefore, price and consistent quality didn't indicate a better paper in my case. Unfortunately, my first choice was Forte - no longer manufactured.

I wouldn't hesitate to try less costly brands.

Regards,
Paul

I suspesct that some folks here feel compelled to recommend Ilford papers. In your case, I do not. I do feel compelled to say that Ilford products are first rate goods at premium prices. You're just learning this stuff, and you're bound to make a lot of mistakes. Do you want to make expensive mistakes or less expensive mistakes? There's nothing wrong with any of the papers mentioned, and some of them are quite good. I happen to like Foma papers myself. Switching paper brands after you've cut your teeth on the cheap stuff is a no-brainer. Anyone who'll have you believe that it's an incredibly difficult thing to do is not thinking.

haris, thank you for your detailed explanation. I already read about the differences
between resin coated and fiber based paper, and I decided for the former for both
easyness to use and lower costs.

There is at least one photographer in my town who still sells some darkroom
equipment and consumables. I've seen some Ilford paper packs there, but I fear its
prices are high. A 36 exposures HP5 roll costs 5,50 Euros there, while I can buy it
online for 3,80 Euros or even less. I can rely on the shop in my town only for very
urgent needs.

The online shop I rely upon doesn't have 24x30 Efke papers in other than 10 sheets
packs. Buying five of these packs costs me less than an Ilford pack of 50 sheets.
OK, I'm almost sure I'm going with the Efke!

I agree, the 13x18 is the smallest serious size, but I don't need serious prints now; I
prefer cheap ones! I'm taking the 13x18 into account. 100 sheets of Foma multigrade
cost 13,20 Euros in 10x15 size and 19,15 Euros in 13x18 size. Ilford, 16,10 Euros and
23,45 Euros respectively. The retailer doesn't have Efke in these formats (if they exist).

The retailer also give me the full choice between glossy and matt surfaces at the
same prices. Maybe I'd buy glossy for the biggest format to get better details, and
matt for the smallest, because I really like it.

Thank you,
Marco

fschifano said:

I suspesct that some folks here feel compelled to recommend Ilford papers. In your case, I do not. I do feel compelled to say that Ilford products are first rate goods at premium prices. You're just learning this stuff, and you're bound to make a lot of mistakes. Do you want to make expensive mistakes or less expensive mistakes? There's nothing wrong with any of the papers mentioned, and some of them are quite good. I happen to like Foma papers myself. Switching paper brands after you've cut your teeth on the cheap stuff is a no-brainer. Anyone who'll have you believe that it's an incredibly difficult thing to do is not thinking.

Click to expand...

My relations with Ilford are next:

For me Ilford is cheaper than EFKE or Foma for about 1/3. That is, my seller sells only Ilford, and price for me is 1/3 less than price for example EFKE has in Croatia (country of EFKE manufacturing), or Foma at sellers I know of. So, in my case, if I need to recommend cheapest paper I know it would be Ilford. It can be possibile that OP to be in same situation like me. But, most likely, for him EFKE or Foma would be cheaper solution.

If Ilford is expencive for OP, he, of course, will buy for him affordable paper.

So, even if I was not directly recommend Ilford, I would recommend it because it is very rational and well funded recommendation. But, that is my situation, it is not by default valid for others!

Of course, nothing wrong with EFKE or Foma (or other papers), but I best know situation with Ilford and EFKE, and thus my previous post.

Regards

Marco Pallante said:

haris, thank you for your detailed explanation. I already read about the differences
between resin coated and fiber based paper, and I decided for the former for both
easyness to use and lower costs.

There is at least one photographer in my town who still sells some darkroom
equipment and consumables. I've seen some Ilford paper packs there, but I fear its
prices are high. A 36 exposures HP5 roll costs 5,50 Euros there, while I can buy it
online for 3,80 Euros or even less. I can rely on the shop in my town only for very
urgent needs.

The online shop I rely upon doesn't have 24x30 Efke papers in other than 10 sheets
packs. Buying five of these packs costs me less than an Ilford pack of 50 sheets.
OK, I'm almost sure I'm going with the Efke!

I agree, the 13x18 is the smallest serious size, but I don't need serious prints now; I
prefer cheap ones! I'm taking the 13x18 into account. 100 sheets of Foma multigrade
cost 13,20 Euros in 10x15 size and 19,15 Euros in 13x18 size. Ilford, 16,10 Euros and
23,45 Euros respectively. The retailer doesn't have Efke in these formats (if they exist).

The retailer also give me the full choice between glossy and matt surfaces at the
same prices. Maybe I'd buy glossy for the biggest format to get better details, and
matt for the smallest, because I really like it.

Thank you,
Marco

Click to expand...

Marco, you are very welcome.

Don't worry, EFKE is good choice, and I am not telling this to make you calm. I have experience with EFKE, and prints I made on EFKE, I will not make on other papers, I am very happy with them. Simply, my photographic life lead me to Ilford, it was as that time out of my control, and I am staying loyal to seller and to manufacturer which are proven to be nice to me in past. So, don't worry, be happy, and work with EFKE, you will not regret it.

As I know EFKE packs 24x30 only in 10 sheets pack, 18x24 in 10 and 25 sheets, they don't have 20x25 at all. Atleast not here (Bosnia, once Bosnia and Croatia - manufacturer of EFKE, were one country), maybe in other markets they do, but I don't know about it.

So, again, you will be happy with EFKE, and don't worry about it

Regards.

Arista EDU made in Czech Republic (thats who) available at Freestyle (thats where) Decent paper- pretty cheap, good to learn on.

Both Efka and Foma make good stuff! Pick which color box you like better and start printing You'll eventually refine your preferences, but the only way to do that is burn some prints and see what you like or don't like about them, then adjust your technique, chemistry and/or paper selection to achieve your vision.
Good luck!

Dear Marco,

Please pm me your home address and I will send you the ILFORD Multigrade printing manual, regardless of what paper you end up buying it should save you some money.....and whilst its written for our products other manufacturers variable contrast papers work in a similar way.

I really hope you enjoy starting to print your own work:

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

JBrunner said:

Arista EDU made in Czech Republic (thats who) available at Freestyle (thats where) Decent paper- pretty cheap, good to learn on.

Click to expand...

I don't think they stay so cheap if I buy them from Italy Noone sells them here.

Marco

I would try Ilford. For beginning, you should stick with an easily available paper available in all typical sizes. Try to learn one paper first before mixing it up. Arguably, Ilford and Kentmere are the only two papers that I know of that have not changed much and are consistently available here. Ilford might cost more, but realistically, if you are printing mostly 8 x 10 inch prints, paper will not be a rate limiting expense. Buy a box of 250 sheets of Ilford multigrade RC and have at it.

Others have given good advice. I'll add one point: It's possible to cut down larger sheets into smaller sizes. I'm not familiar with what sizes are common in Europe, but using US sizes, it's possible to cut an 8x10-inch sheet into two 5x7-inch sheets or three 4x6-inch sheets (with a little left over in either case; the leftover can be used for test strips if you cut before exposing and processing). This usually works out to a lower cost than buying the paper in the smaller sizes, even if you throw away the leftover bit. The drawbacks to cutting down sheets are that it takes more time and you end up with sheets that vary slightly in size, since the measurements are by imprecise human hands rather than by ultra-precise machines.

A related option is to buy paper in rolls rather than sheets. This gives even more possibilities. For instance, with an 8-inch by whatever roll, it's possible to cut sheets in "normal" sizes like 8x10 or 4x6, but also in more unusual sizes like 8x12 or 8x8. This can be done with less waste, too. Of course, it's possible to cut down larger sheets to these oddball sizes, but you may need bigger sheets to start with for some sizes.