paper smells funny after toning in viradon new

rjas · Feb 8, 2007

I finished a print with viradon new for the first time the other day. After toning I put the prints in a 10% sodium sulfite solution for 5 minutes, then into a water wash for over an hour. I noticed that in the wash some of the prints had these weird reflective spots that rubbed off on my finger, as well as a light milky substance that also rubbed off. I swiped the prints with a sponge when I hung then up to dry to help wipe any stuff off that might have remained. After drying all the prints look fine except for one, which has these weird streaks on it, and I can detect this smell coming off of them that none of my other untoned prints have. It smells kind of like the 10% sulfite solution. any suggestions?

rjas · Feb 8, 2007

btw, here is a digital camera snap of the print for anyone that is interested (i couldnt get the streaks to show up)

timeUnit · Feb 8, 2007

The print looks awesome! Sorry I can't give you any help on the issue at hand.

Do you mind telling what paper this is?

User Removed · Feb 8, 2007

I remember a friend of mine using Viradon toner awhile ago, and he would always end up with that film/buildup on his prints also.

Are you washing all your prints seprate from each other, so none of them are getting stuck together in the wash water? They all need to be apart from each other so the whole print can be washed 100%.

timeUnit · Feb 8, 2007

I've used Viradon with none of these adverse effects. I was using Adox VarioClassic FB.

Leon · Feb 8, 2007

I often get the very same problem, and strangley enough, it is completely unpredictable - It certainly isnt dependent upon paper type or wash time. I've stopped using it now for that reason. well, that and the smell just did my head in - even when I used it outdoors, I would still have rotten eggs up my nose for days afterwards. Even the memory of that rancid parfum is making my toes curl.

Petzi · Feb 8, 2007

I haven't used Viradon New yet, but I read somewhere that, unlike the original Viradon, it does not contain Liver of Sulfur, which is supposed to be responsible for the ugly smell. That's why I am surprised that you complain about it.

Petzi · Feb 8, 2007

From the Viradon New instructions I gather this, it might be helpful:

1. To avoid stains, the prints must be placed individually in
the Viradon solution and then agitated well.
2. Prints intended for toning must be treated with fixer which is as fresh as possible.
3. Prints must be thoroughly washed before toning.
4. Thorough washing is also necessary after toning.

Also, the working solution must be discarded after use and can not be reused.

If you get bad results even though you have followed these instructions, let me know, I will talk to the manufacturer about it.

FrankB · Feb 8, 2007

In Tim Rudman's excellent toning book he mentions the smell that accompanies sulphide toners and suggests a dilute solution of permanganate to remove it.

These threads may be of interest re the staining issue -

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Hope this helps,

Frank

Leon · Feb 8, 2007

FrankB said:
In Tim Rudman's excellent toning book he mentions the smell that accompanies sulphide toners and suggests a dilute solution of permanganate to remove it.

These threads may be of interest re the staining issue -

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Hope this helps,

Frank

Frank - I wouldnt want to be putting that on my prints though.

Petzi - I had read the instructions fully, but still got the problems, but it's not staining, it's a milky precipitate that seems to be difficult to remove and goes powdery when the print dries. I wonder if poor water quality is to blame?

PS - I can assure you Petzi - it STINKS!

FrankB · Feb 8, 2007

Fair point - the recommendation was for removing the smell from grads and trays!

Petzi · Feb 8, 2007

Leon said:
PS - I can assure you Petzi - it STINKS!

I've got to try it on occasion. I guess the old Viradon was a lot worse then. From the Middle Ages we know that sulfur is a favorite odor in hell.

Do you know how hard your water is?

Leon · Feb 8, 2007

Petzi said:
Do you know how hard your water is?

VERY! I live on chalk downland, so limescale is the order of the day. We get through about one kettle per year here. I've tried mixing the toner in distilled water, but I cant afford to wash in that too! I tihink I may be investing in a in-line filter as soon as I can afford one.

I guess the original thread poster will have to let you know a bit more about his streaking though

Ole · Feb 8, 2007

New Viradon also contains Liver of Sulfur, the main difference is that the old one also contained selenium.

They both stink awfully, and I will only use either outdoors.

Wite precipitate can be a number of different things including sulfur, calcium sulfide/sulfite/sulfate et cetera.

The sulfite bath converts surplus sulfur and sulfide to thiosulfate, which is more soluble and less smelly. If you then wash the print in hard water, you will get a white precipitate of some kind of calcium sulfur compound.

That's just the way it is - you don't need distilled water, just water with low calcium.

rjas · Feb 8, 2007

timeUnit said:
The print looks awesome! Sorry I can't give you any help on the issue at hand.

Do you mind telling what paper this is?

fomabrom variant fb rc. all i got with direct viradon was a selenium purple look, but with a bleach then tone for about 40 minutes in cold toner (done outside in the snow) this is what I got.

rjas · Feb 8, 2007

Petzi said:
From the Viradon New instructions I gather this, it might be helpful:

1. To avoid stains, the prints must be placed individually in
the Viradon solution and then agitated well.
2. Prints intended for toning must be treated with fixer which is as fresh as possible.
3. Prints must be thoroughly washed before toning.
4. Thorough washing is also necessary after toning.

Also, the working solution must be discarded after use and can not be reused.

If you get bad results even though you have followed these instructions, let me know, I will talk to the manufacturer about it.

I did all of that except I reuse the toner. At 1+24 I'd only get 4 sessions out a ten dollar bottle! I wash the prints in a large tray with a kodak tray siphon and I shuffle them once in awhile. The prints don't stick together but perhaps I should try washing one at a time.

rjas · Feb 8, 2007

Leon said:
Frank - I wouldnt want to be putting that on my prints though.

Petzi - I had read the instructions fully, but still got the problems, but it's not staining, it's a milky precipitate that seems to be difficult to remove and goes powdery when the print dries. I wonder if poor water quality is to blame?

PS - I can assure you Petzi - it STINKS!

Yeah, the milky substance (I laugh every time I say that) I get must be the same you are experiencing. I use tap water with all my chemicals and haven't had a problem until now. A wipe with a damp and clean sponge seemed to have cleaned up 2 out of 3 of the prints, and now that I think carefully, I remember being distracted and not wiping the 3rd print, which is probably the one with the streaks on it.

And yeah, it does still stink. Not as bad as Kodak Sepia Toner II but the disgusting rotten egg smell is still there.

rjas · Feb 8, 2007

FrankB said:
In Tim Rudman's excellent toning book he mentions the smell that accompanies sulphide toners and suggests a dilute solution of permanganate to remove it.

These threads may be of interest re the staining issue -

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Hope this helps,

Frank

Thanks for the link. I am not too concerned about the smell if it doesn't affect the longevity of the print - after all aren't toned prints supposed to last longer? It isn't like I'll be sticking my nose onto the surface of the print but I'm concerned about wether I'm not washing well enough.

rjas · Feb 8, 2007

Ole said:
.

Wite precipitate can be a number of different things including sulfur, calcium sulfide/sulfite/sulfate et cetera.

The sulfite bath converts surplus sulfur and sulfide to thiosulfate, which is more soluble and less smelly. If you then wash the print in hard water, you will get a white precipitate of some kind of calcium sulfur compound.

That's just the way it is - you don't need distilled water, just water with low calcium.

I think you've got it - the white stuff forms in the wash right after the 10% hca bath, as far as I can tell. I'm not sure how hard my water is but I'll try washing in distilled water for the first part of the wash.

paper smells funny after toning in viradon new

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