Paper Samples & Developer/Toning Info Thread

Juan Valdenebro · Nov 10, 2016

Hi,
On this recent APUG thread ((there was a url link here which no longer exists)) I saw an interesting post (#21) showing a few paper samples, and I couldn't find a more complete thread like that post...
Wouldn't it be an interesting and helpful document having a thread like that post, getting more and more complete with time, and including for each sample also developer / toning information?
Having printed mostly on neutral / cool papers in the past (except for a couple of warm Bergger ones) now I'm very interested in looking at really warm and sepia images...
Thanks for any collaboration!

Rich Ullsmith · Nov 11, 2016

Oh, boy. That would be great. I would not know myself, having not tried, but to bring out the subtleties of a well crafted print via scanner and monitor, nope.

Slixtiesix · Nov 11, 2016

There was an extensive comparison of various papers recently on the Film and Darkroom Forum that may be of interest for you!

http://www.theonlinedarkroom.com/2016/11/giant-paper-test-at-fadu.html

Having a thread on various papers in different developers and toners would be great I think. However, the problem is that if these samples are contributed by different people, you will always have differences in scanner calibration so the overall comparability may be doubtful...

mnemosyne · Nov 11, 2016

Me thinks scanning of a print is not really ideal for this application, a digital photograph of the paper with a greycard or some other color/neutral reference in the frame would be preferable. The samples would have to be shot under natural light or some other form of continuous spectrum light source of course. Generally, for sake of comparability it would be best to see as many samples from one contributor as possible, maybe even next to each other in one frame ...

Ian Grant · Nov 11, 2016

Part of the problem is that it's possible to vary the warmth and image colour of a paper by choice of developer, time etc quite significantly before you even think of toning. Toners work differently with different papers and some are variable in themselves, I'm thinking particularly of the Thiourea toners, choice of bleach as well has a big effect.

Agfa (Orwo) published Sepia toners with a choice first of 3 bleaches and then a choice of 3 or 4 toners so that's a lot of variations. I did a lot of work on toners back in the very late 1970's to mid 1980's, this was for commercial applications. While I still have some of the test samples the papers are no longer available..

It is possible to scan and show the differences well on a site like this, for instance scroll down this page or this one.

Ian

Juan Valdenebro · Nov 11, 2016

Rich Ullsmith said:
Oh, boy. That would be great. I would not know myself, having not tried, but to bring out the subtleties of a well crafted print via scanner and monitor, nope.

Hello, Rich... Thanks for your sincere opinion.
I never thought viewing prints' scans on a monitor would replace viewing wet prints, but yet I think such kind of collection would be informative... Of course a decent scan (talking both about tone and contrast) is required, but doing it, is not very hard... It can be done with and without a gray card too, and monitors can be callibrated... About the post on the thread I mentioned, I like that it shows several prints together, in the same scan, so a true visual comparison exists indeed...
An attempt, even not being 100% perfect as directly having the prints at hand is, might be considered better than nothing... For the subtleties, we print... For information, the forums.
Thanks again,
J.

Juan Valdenebro · Nov 11, 2016

Slixtiesix said:
There was an extensive comparison of various papers recently on the Film and Darkroom Forum that may be of interest for you!

http://www.theonlinedarkroom.com/2016/11/giant-paper-test-at-fadu.html

Having a thread on various papers in different developers and toners would be great I think. However, the problem is that if these samples are contributed by different people, you will always have differences in scanner calibration so the overall comparability may be doubtful...

I agree about there would be tonal differences from different contributors... Even with those differences, for sure I'd enjoy it...
But, hey! Thanks a lot for the link! I just registered at FADU... A moment ago I read the comments, and later I'll check the images... Great effort, it seems!
J.

Juan Valdenebro · Nov 11, 2016

mnemosyne said:
Me thinks scanning of a print is not really ideal for this application, a digital photograph of the paper with a greycard or some other color/neutral reference in the frame would be preferable. The samples would have to be shot under natural light or some other form of continuous spectrum light source of course. Generally, for sake of comparability it would be best to see as many samples from one contributor as possible, maybe even next to each other in one frame ...

Totally agree, and you've said clearly all I thought of... That way, it would be wonderful, and trustable.
J.

Juan Valdenebro · Nov 11, 2016

Ian Grant said:
Part of the problem is that it's possible to vary the warmth and image colour of a paper by choice of developer, time etc quite significantly before you even think of toning. Toners work differently with different papers and some are variable in themselves, I'm thinking particularly of the Thiourea toners, choice of bleach as well has a big effect.

Agfa (Orwo) published Sepia toners with a choice first of 3 bleaches and then a choice of 3 or 4 toners so that's a lot of variations. I did a lot of work on toners back in the very late 1970's to mid 1980's, this was for commercial applications. While I still have some of the test samples the papers are no longer available..

It is possible to scan and show the differences well on a site like this, for instance scroll down this page or this one.

Ian

Hello Ian,
This past weeks I decided to read all APUG threads available in the Film subforum (many years!) and I remember well your name because of many great comments... Thanks for all that knowledge sharing!
Precisely yesterday I finished reading (from old to new threads), and it was a very recent thread on warm papers recommendation what made me want more visual comparisons...
You have a very valid point here: even a paper's warmth can change not only because of developer but because of time, so absolutes would be hard to establish in that kind of thread... I'll check the mentioned FADU comparison to see what's available these days...
J.

Juan Valdenebro · Nov 11, 2016

Well, there's no hurry... Maybe one day we'll have a first one, or a few interesting samples here... The subject is really wide because of developers and toning options...
Thanks everyone for the comments!
J.

mnemosyne · Nov 12, 2016

Juan,
I happen to have made a test print just two days ago that shows a really warm/sepia tone you are looking for (Ilford MG IV developed in Rollei vintage and toned with Foma Sepia toner). I tried to make a picture of it with my primitive compact digital, but the lighting was not ideal and the sepia tone of the print did not really show well on my (calibrated) display. It appeared much too reddish IMO when comparing display to original. I will see if I can make a better picture next week and post it here.

Juan Valdenebro · Nov 12, 2016

mnemosyne said:
Juan,
I happen to have made a test print just two days ago that shows a really warm/sepia tone you are looking for (Ilford MG IV developed in Rollei vintage and toned with Foma Sepia toner). I tried to make a picture of it with my primitive compact digital, but the lighting was not ideal and the sepia tone of the print did not really show well on my (calibrated) display. It appeared much too reddish IMO when comparing display to original. I will see if I can make a better picture next week and post it here.

That would be very nice to see... Thank you!
J.

Juan Valdenebro · Nov 13, 2016

Greg Davis said:
I have, twice, created my own catalog of prints. Choose one negative that prints easily with a wide range of tones and represents your average type work. Choose three papers (to start, add more in the future), three developers, and three toners (add more variation by using different dilutions and times for each toner). Make prints mixing all possible combinations. For example, I last used Ilford Classic, Ilford WT, and Lodima developed in Dektol, Selectol, and Selectol Soft with selenium toner at 1:3, 1:9, and 1:19 dilutions for 5 and 10 minutes each, Kodak Polytoner at 1:4, 1:24, and 1:50, and Kodak Brown Toner.

To make things faster, note the exposure difference needed between each paper to make them match as a percentage of the first one used, you can expose lots of prints then develop in batches. Write everything on the back of the prints in pencil as you expose to keep them organized later.

Hi Greg,
Nice tips... I realize I have never exposed several prints and developed in batches... That sounds great!
Yes, I was planning to do something like you say, test a few (2 or 3) papers, developers, and then see how toning affects them... I just wanted to pick them visually (from a thread) to start... A bit lazy, maybe... Thanks!

nworth · Nov 13, 2016

Toners do act differently on different papers. You can also change your toning technique to get different effects. Tim Rudman's book gives a lot of examples which give you a decent idea of how toners act on different papers. But reproductions are never really accurate, and they do not show a lot of the subtlety of toning. If you are into toning, make a bunch of identical prints on your favorite papers and then tone them in all your favorite toners. That way you will have a ready reference. But watch out for the manufacturer changing the paper.

Paper Samples & Developer/Toning Info Thread

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